55. Shifting from Maps to a Satnav World – Understanding the shift in the way that Boards make decisions | with Patrick Dunne

55. Shifting from Maps to a Satnav World – Understanding the shift in the way that Boards make decisions with Patrick Dunne

Hannah Munro : 1:12 

So, hello everybody and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. Now I'm quite excited to have a repeat offender, Patrick Dunn, who's been on the podcast before. This time, he's coming back to talk about a really interesting article he wrote that I loved, all about the shift from a maps to a sat-nav world in terms of how the way that boards make decisions. So, welcome back, Patrick. Lovely to have you. 

Patrick Dunne: 1:39 

Great to be back and lovely to see how it's been developing at CFO4. 

Hannah Munro : 1:43 

Yeah, absolutely. It's been a really interesting, so, it's been quite a few months since you've been on the show. So, for those perhaps that haven't looked through or listened back to the back catalogue of CFO 4.0, if you haven't, you really should listen to a previous episode that Patrick did with us on what boards are looking for in a CFO. But just tell us a little bit about, because you yourself, Patrick, in terms of your book that you've got out and I must admit, I have read and it's Very good. So, yeah, it'd be great to understand sort of a bit about your background for those that perhaps haven't listened to a previous episode. 

Patrick Dunne: 2:20 

Yeah, so, very briefly, I'm sort of born in inner city Liverpool, was okay at maths, did a maths degree, worked in the chemicals industry. then got an MBA, then got into private equity before it was fashionable, ended up in the operating committee of 3i, FTSE 100, and got really interested in boards during that time. And on the side of my day job, I've built a number of social enterprises here and in Africa, mostly around disadvantaged young people and education or getting jobs. young people from those backgrounds to get quality jobs. 

Hannah Munro : 3:03 

Yes. And when did you publish? So, you've written a book, obviously, on how well-functioning boards operate because there's not a huge amount on the topic. So, tell us a little bit about that book and how long ago did you actually publish it? 

Patrick Dunne: 3:18 

Yeah. So, actually, what's just been published is the second edition of a book called Boards. And Boards, I published... literally a fortnight before the pandemic broke. So, there was nothing in boards about the crisis, the pandemic, COVID, you know, all of those things. And it struck me fairly on, just because I chair a number of boards, that things were changing profoundly. Some things were changing anyway, and they just got a boost by COVID. Other things, you know, just people's mindsets changed, and things changed as well. And the way we work together changed because hybrid or virtual working so, I thought whereas originally I thought you know well maybe do a new edition in three or four years I thought actually it's probably going to be sooner than that but I didn't want to do it too quickly because then you know things might change again significantly so, I better wait a bit um and so, I literally The book has got sort of four sections, if you like. So, the first three are purpose, people and process. Because I found in terms of board effectiveness, if you've got the right purpose, you've got people... clear about that, you're all aligned behind that, that's good. If you then got the right people working together in the right way, and you've got good relevant process for the nature of the organisation and the stage of its development, then that's quite a good model for board of directors. So, I went through, those were the sort of first three sections, if you like. And then the fourth section, which is probably half the book, are a whole series of dilemmas and difficult situations that you might face as a director. And then there's a sort of how you navigate your way through this. So, in looking at doing the new edition for how it might be impacted by COVID, I literally went, rather do a COVID chapter, which would have been the easiest thing, could have knocked that out quite quickly. I went through every sentence, literally, to see, has that changed? Has this changed? Is that the same? And that's where I thought the way we make decisions was probably one of the biggest things that was shifting. And I think it was shifting beforehand, but it got a boost. And there were a couple of others, but And I was sitting in my car, being diverted somewhere one day, and I was thinking, actually, we seem to be moving to a sat-nav world in terms of the way we're making decisions. closer to the junction with better information about what the rest of the world is doing rather than, you know, just we started out, we knew where we wanted to get to. We had a map and we're following it. We get lost and we go again on that. But we weren't sort of adapting our route as quickly as we might for the conditions that were facing us. So, that was where the analogy came. came from and I did a little three minute video in my car actually about it too which was quite fun but I think you know more seriously that there are a number of clear drivers around this and maybe we'll talk about those in a minute and I think there's a dream involved in this is that we will make better decisions and there's a reality that that it's not quite as straightforward to shift from a maps world to a sat-nav world, especially for CFOs, as it might seem. 

Hannah Munro : 6:39 

No, absolutely. And I think we'll pick up on some of those challenges as we go through. So, if I maybe summarize what you just said there. So, what we're saying is basically the pace of decision-making has changed and the speed at which we're reacting has changed. COVID's a great accelerator in those, and I guess, great illustrator of that scenario. So, you also made a really interesting comment was that this was actually happening before the pandemic. So, tell us a little bit about that. What is changing? What is causing that shift? 

Patrick Dunne: 7:18 

So, I think in the venture capital area, early-stage businesses are You know, people have been doing this for decades. So, you have lockstep approaches to spending. So, you're only going to spend when this has happened and so, on. You have strategic frameworks and parameters instead of a detailed strategic Bible. So, those things were already there, I think. And the pandemic has just accelerated that. I think just as it can be challenging for finance directors, it can also be challenging for board members who You know, their whole lives they've been driven by, you know, let's agree the budget, let's agree the plan, let them get on with it, challenge it, and then that's it. Whereas, you know, more constant review, if you like, is a bit harder work and greater uncertainty. And with bigger stakes for getting, it right or wrong, you know, that introduces more pressure into things, which can be very helpful, and it can be unhelpful. 

Hannah Munro : 8:20 

Yeah, and I think that's a really good point because it's not, like you say, it's not only the ability to make the change and the wish to make the change, it's actually a requirement to make the change quicker because, like you say, the world is changing. I don't know how many people a pandemic on their business continuity plan before the crisis had, but I'm pretty sure they've all got it on now, to be very fair. 

Patrick Dunne: 8:46 

True, and I think people have changed their lives approach to risk. I think we lived in a just-in-time world before and now we're in a just-in-case world. And I think a lot of risk matrices now have got more about consequences than they have about events. So, I was very struck when I chaired the EY Foundation how swiftly EY moved to virtual working. It's like in a day. And it was because in their crisis contingency planning, what would happen if we couldn't get into our offices? all of them on the day. And they had a plan for that. They didn't have a plan for what will happen if COVID-19 strikes, but they had a plan for that. And I think a lot of people have shifted to more of a consequences than an events type approach to looking at risk. 

Hannah Munro : 9:35 

That's an interesting one. And if we get time on this podcast, I might pick your brains on that a little bit more, you know, but back onto the topic and sort of where we started the conversation. So, talk to me about the decision-making process in terms of how are boards and or senior leadership's team now approaching decision-making? Has the actual process of decision-making changed or is it just the speed? 

Patrick Dunne: 10:02 

I think the process has changed. And I think actually some decisions are made later. just as they are when you're in your car or your boat. You know, you're kind of making the decision closer to the junction as opposed to all of the decisions when you set out. So, the way that it's changing, I think, is that boards and exec teams are agreeing the strategic framework, the parameters, agreeing the objectives where you want to go, and then applying flexibility in between. And one of the ways they're doing that is to say, we just did this last week, actually, again at the EY Foundation, where we looked at what are the five or six big decisions we've got to make in the coming year? When do we need to make them? How are we going to make them? And we make some decisions in a different way to others. Rather than make every decision in the same way, team do a paper, present it to the board, board kick the tires, tweak a bit, go ahead. We're saying, actually, let's break this down. So, we break the big decisions down. We break down into three. So, we have an early discussion where we're exploring all the issues, getting our heads around the different choices we might be interested in making. Second one, really narrowing down those choices. That's the mid-Sopiatic and early-mid-later, but this is the mid-bit. And you're getting a much greater understanding of that choice. And then the late, which is the final bit, where actually, yeah, we are going ahead with that choice. But in the final one, you're spending a greater amount of time, and I think was historic, on understanding the implementation plan. Because when you look at most decisions that go wrong, it's often not because you made the wrong choice. You just did it badly. You executed badly. You picked the wrong person to lead it, the wrong partner. You didn't have enough contingency. You didn't apply enough resource. You thought it would happen much more quickly. And so, by doing that early-mid-late approach, and being clear what are the big decisions you've got to take and dealing with those in terms of the priority, most important first, then I think that's been quite a big shift. And then when it comes to the decision, I think there's greater flexibility in the execution in a lot of ways because there's an understanding that things change. So, for example, this is as much about the upside as the downside. So, if you were Zoom and you were the Zoom board at the beginning of the pandemic, you had a budget, you had a plan, and you could have just stuck to that, and you'd have done well. But actually, the smart thing was to say, hold on a minute, things have changed significantly. We don't know how long for. So, we'll put in process a more regular review and we're going to massively up spending. If sales, customer numbers come through more strongly, then we will do that. So, I think it's more in an if-then mindset. than a January or February mindset. Whereas before, you know, people say, well, this is what we're going to spend in January or get to the end of the year. You haven't spent your budget, and you think, well, I better spend it. Otherwise, it would give me the same next year. It sort of blows that away a bit, which I think is healthy. 

Hannah Munro : 13:14 

And so, it's almost like you say, contingency planning. If this happens, then we're going to allocate this kind of resource. So, how do you manage all of those various different scenarios on top of trying to keep control, I guess, of your ongoing costs and budgets? How can you structure those controls and those scenarios in a way that works? 

Patrick Dunne: 13:39 

And that's where, you know, really smart, CFOs and CEOs together because there's the financial side and there's the operational side. So, one of the management teams love the idea of more flexibility, but they also have a high need for certainty. Will I be able to recruit those people? And you're saying, well, yeah, if the sales come in that way or the cash is this. And no, if not. And they find that less comfortable, obviously. So, I think there's a trade to be done on both sides, really, between the board and the exec. And I think it's only by talking about it, only by agreeing how we're going to make these decisions that you get that. But certainly, I think in the case of ESSA, Childhood Management Institute, EY Foundation, I'm on a chair. We did that and happily that proved to be very helpful in terms of the way we changed the way we worked together. It was really, really helpful. 

Hannah Munro : 14:50 

So, if we just step back for a second then and think about what are the things, so, a new board wanting to approach this more dynamic approach to decision-making, what do they actually need to have in place and how should they approach it? If you were approaching a new board perhaps without any of this in place, what would be the process that you would go through with them? 

Patrick Dunne: 15:14 

So, we would be thinking about what are the big decisions that we make we know that we have to take what are the decisions that we think we might have to take you've got those what is the nature of those decisions and how fundamental are they to our strategy and to our operating model and then um to start thinking about okay when is when might be the best time to make that decision from what we know today and what information would we ideally have to be able to make that decision? So, for example, we'd want to know about what the competitors are up to, what the regulator might be thinking about this issue. If we do this, will that improve or deteriorate staff engagement, for example? What impact will this have on the communities if we decide so, So, what bits of information do we need to have? some of those won't be changing very quickly. Some of them might be. So, we might actually decide in order to make this decision in January, you know, we need this sort of financial analysis. We need this sort of market analysis. We need this risk analysis, whatever. And we get going on the work for that. And then the next sort of meeting we have we're saying okay yeah so, we really are going to make that decision then and you know we need to fine tune this information and we start to get into it and then we go and make the decision at the right point so, it's a sort of rather than the historical thing where we say we need to make a decision on X management come and give us a paper a week before and we decide to do it yay or nay or tweak it a little bit and do it we're not doing that we're actually thinking harder about how do we stand the best chance of making this decision right. 

Hannah Munro : 17:18 

So, it sounds like there's firstly a bit more prep involved in terms of trying to think ahead. It's almost like you're trying to predict the decisions that you might need to make in the future and then almost identifying requirements in order to make that decision and dependencies before you even get presented with the paper itself. 

Patrick Dunne: 17:37 

Yeah, I mean, a very good example pre-pandemic was the University of Warwick's approach to Brexit. So, Warwick has this early middle-aged approach to making big decisions and also what are the big decisions we might need to take. And by coincidence, the meeting that we had to discuss, you know, what are the next big decisions just before that, there was sort of rumour that there might be a Brexit referendum. And we said, actually, well, if there is, then that could be a massively significant event. Seems like a low probability there, doesn't it? But the impact is very high. So, why don't we, in our next board meeting, spend some time just thinking through what are the issues if we did leave the EU? And those might be in terms of students, faculty, research income, sorts of things. And when might we need to decide something just in case it happens? So, the best example I can think of is, so, if you have an EU faculty retention strategy, so, we want to keep as many of our European faculty as we can, there's no point waiting until you get to the referendum decision stage. and do something about it the next morning. That's something you need to start now. But there'd be other things, like we maybe need some new partnerships in Europe. We could lose a terrific amount of research income, which most universities have as a result of leaving the EU. What are we going to do about that? And that will take longer. So, we had a combination of, there was a big decision, what do we do about Brexit if it happens? And then there's a series of other things, and they're on different timelines now. So, we could quite quickly come up with an EU faculty retention strategy and approve that in two meetings time and get on with doing that. And then actually, whether there was Brexit or not, that would be not a bad thing. It didn't cost a lot of money. There'd be other things like losing a lot of research income, which could have a more profound effect. 

Hannah Munro : 19:47 

And in terms, I guess then, Sue, what are you expecting from a CFO as part of this shift? Is there a change in how they are required to work with the board? What sort of things should they be considering in terms of themselves, both as an individual, but also their departments and their teams as well? 

Patrick Dunne: 20:09 

I think the... What's already happened is I think actually a lot of smart CFOs have anticipated this and already been thinking about these things. And this is the environment that's then given them almost a mandate to do it. So, I think they've kind of for a while, many CFOs I know think that the rigidity of an annual budget It's a bit of an odd thing, isn't it, to think in months rather than sort of, you know, what condition the company might be in at a point where you start to spend more money or less. So, I think they've been there before. The smarter ones also are very on top of it's not just financial information that drives the performance of the company. And they've got a... visibility. Many of them are also often responsible for digital and other things. So, they've got to know the system. They system think, if you like. So, they're not just thinking about the P&L, the balance sheet and the cash flow. They're thinking about the system, the financial dynamic, for want of a better word. So, they think about the financial dynamic, the operational dynamic and the strategic dynamic. And they kind of got that overview of those things. And they're recruiting people who are agile, are kind of can cope with doing a different job, are actively open-minded, thinking about different ways to do things, challenging whatever is the way it's done now in a constructive way. So, I think they're leaders, basically, is the word I'd use. They're sort of thinking ahead. They're picking the right people, motivating them, and they're able to influence the board and the other execs to work in that way. 

Hannah Munro : 22:07 

Because I'm guessing you need a strong support from that CFO to shift into that dynamic model because of the... the changes it's going to require on a board-by-board basis in terms of each board meeting, the situation could be very different. 

Patrick Dunne: 22:23 

Very dangerous to embark down this route if you haven't got a CFO. who has got the potential or the capability and wants to because you can then see the whole thing not really you know just be so, you know from a board point of view obviously you may need to think about do you need to change the CFO before you embark on this because you know for whatever reason that's not their way of doing things or They don't have those skills or they just don't want to do it. You know, as with any other role, you know. 

Hannah Munro : 23:05 

That concept of an agile finance function, I think, is quite an interesting one. And it's certainly coming into play. I'm seeing it. talked about a lot more across both systems, but also, and now I'm hearing it strategically as well, which is quite interesting in terms of how boards are moving. And I guess that's the question a lot of our listeners need to ask themselves, isn't it? Are you able to perform that function for your board and for your team? And I guess also, are they aware that you can? Have you got plans in place to be able to cope with the dynamic situations? And do you have access to the right information and data. And like you say, it comes back to that conversation, I guess, about financing context, isn't it? So, that operational conversation. So,... No, I was just going to say, it's quite an interesting dynamic. And certainly, are you having those conversations with the CFOs for the boards that you're chairing? 

Patrick Dunne: 24:07 

Completely, yeah. Well, I mean, I suppose I was lucky because I spent... big chunk of my early career in venture and private equity, that's the way that operates. So, that was, it's sort of more natural, if you like. And so,, yeah, and at the beginning of the pandemic, what was interesting is all the boards I'm on, we had a conversation about how are we going to work together and what does this mean for the way we make strategic decisions, the way we do budgeting, you know, and we sort of had budgets for phases and as opposed for months. So, while these conditions continue, then this is what we're going to do. When we're released into the community, or whatever it would be, then we might do something different. Or if we see a spike in demand that we hadn't anticipated, which quite a lot of companies did, because people's spending patterns shifted quite dramatically during lockdown, up as well as down. You look at the stuff that we're using to do this today. So, many people invested in better cameras for their laptop or better microphones or headsets or all sorts of things that people wouldn't have naturally anticipated. But will that continue once everyone's got one of those? Absolutely. 

Hannah Munro : 25:35 

It's an interesting thing. And just something I think is quite an interesting point, because like you say, you're having to manage multiple budgets for multiple scenarios. So, actually, the workload in terms of the amount of budgets that you've got to produce could be, you know, could, you know, double, triple, you know, triple, depending on how many scenarios that you're catering for. So, are there any strategies that you've got in place to cope with that as a budget, 

Patrick Dunne: 26:03 

as a board? I think, I mean, obviously as a board, you're interested in, you know, the aggregate, you know, in a way. You'll interrogate below that, but you're interested in the aggregate. So, one of the things the CFO... has to have in mind is what's the combination of things that we've agreed to and the consequences of that so, one of the things you know you you've seen lots of CFOs in board meetings will now whereas before they tended not to they may have their laptop there and they say actually yeah if we do that this is what will happen the combination of the things that you've just decided will result in this so, they've sort of marked there was one company uh about two months into the pandemic I was working with, and the CFO would always bring his laptop and he'd say, yeah, well, if you want to do that, this is how that's going to play out in the P&L cash flow and the budget and the balance sheet. And doing it then, rather than then, will have an impact in six months' time of this. or so, on. And he was extremely good and able to just put in straight away, you know, well, yeah, you do that, that, that, this is what... Because sometimes it's hard as an exec to carry the aggregate in your head of all the consequences and the consequences you know, he was able to play out. So, I remember one conversation he had and yeah, all those three things make absolute commercial sense, but they're going to blow our banking covenants in December. So, you know, they make commercial sense other than the fact that, you know, you're in trouble with the bank. But from a, you know, ROI point of view and those sort of things, fine. So, I think finance directors are building better financial dynamic models now. as you can't speak into this, and are more confident with the tech and with their models that they can say, yeah, you know, this is what's going to 

Hannah Munro : 28:10 

happen. I think that's a really interesting visual, isn't it? That sort of anticipatory CFO, the one that's able to sort of sit there with their dashboards, with their models and respond to the situation. But again, it comes back to that, like, have you got the systems and processes in place to be able to do it? 

Patrick Dunne: 28:29 

And of course, you know, they're then the smarty pants. So, if you're on another board, you say to yourself, well, in my other board, the CFO is doing this. And you can see the look of terror across their face thinking, oh, God, no, I'm going to have to do that. I mean, that's the sort of human reality of it, isn't it? And I mean, I think most all the chairs I know and rate, we all have a huge empathy with the CFO role. It's incredibly demanding. incredibly difficult and you know increasingly demanding and difficult I think but actually I think this stuff is slightly more enjoyable in some ways. 

Hannah Munro : 29:12 

Well, I always have the discussion about why did you get in? Most people that have decided to become a CFO didn't do it because they liked playing with spreadsheets and graphs. What they're interested in is the reason that they're playing with those spreadsheets and graphs. So, actually, it's getting away, isn't it, from the controller of the purse strings into somebody that's helping with more of the strategic direction, which must be very exciting. exciting. 

Patrick Dunne: 29:43 

It must be very exciting. Although I would say, Hannah, there are some people who just like playing with spreadsheets. 

Hannah Munro : 29:49 

Look, right. As a data geek myself, like I enjoy the data, but I'm a bit, I like to think I'm on that side of the fence. I enjoy understanding what the data is telling me than necessarily building really powerful pivot tables. So, but yeah, no, you're right. There are, and I think that's the decision point, isn't it? What is the role that you want in finance? You know, do you want to be the person to make sure everything lines up to the penny or do you want to be the person that's in finance? Like you say, these strategic decisions. 

Patrick Dunne: 30:23 

And you can be both. And interesting, I think in this sort of world I'm sort of, and we have been talking about, I think the CFO is a more natural partner to the CEO rather than a servant to the CEO. So, I think it increases the influence of the CFO as long as you can do it. So, I think that's an interesting thing too. 

Hannah Munro : 30:47 

Yeah, that's a really interesting point to ponder on. And I guess my final question for you is how, if... How does a CFO that is looking to maybe go the other way to influence their board into shifting? Because they know it's the right way to go, but perhaps their board is perhaps not quite comfortable with the idea of more dynamic way of working. What are your top tips for them to influence the other way? How could they approach it? 

Patrick Dunne: 31:16 

So, I think if you can give them examples of something that they can relate to where it's worked really well, that's helpful. If you can almost start in baby steps that's helpful so, you don't have to do the whole thing that way you could look at one aspect that way and I think there's also they're influenced by their peers they're influenced by you know well if other people are doing it, why are they doing it? Is this some sort of rash trend that's going to disappear quite quickly? Or is this actually a more profound shift? Also, they may actually be able to demonstrate that they've been doing some aspects of this for a while anyway. This is just actually taking it to the next level. So, I think if they think in phases, as opposed to let's go and do it that way. So, let's have a phase where we pilot it. we try it you can have an annual budget but let's try this as well and so, you've got it alongside the annual budget because you probably will if you're a public company you're going to need to make forecasts and all the rest of it so, you have to have that but I think this alongside it maybe to start with so, that people feel they're not ditching the things that they've got very comfortable with and you know and like to operate by. Because if you've been operating for 30 years by one approach and you suddenly say, well, let's chuck that away and let's do something different, I think naturally people are going to be suspicious and worried. So, you have to give confidence, build confidence as you go through. 

Hannah Munro : 33:02 

1. And do you think this will do away with that annual... budget rush that happens sort of three months before the year ends. Do you think it will continue and be more continuous through the year and the cycle? Or do you think you will always have that push for planning pre-financial year?

Patrick Dunne: 33:27 

I think if you report in financial years, which people will probably do, then you're going to have to have some idea in advance you're going to have to have a forecast for that year and you're probably going to have a related sort of what you're likely to spend for that year but what I'm saying is alongside that you're going to within the year adopt a more dynamic approach and actually it works because earlier on you might be signalling up as many public companies do you know we are not going to hit our forecast or we're going to achieve the same profit, but in a different way. So, I think it supports rather than replaces, if you like, completely. 

Hannah Munro : 34:14 

Brilliant. Well, thank you, Patrick. It's been a really interesting session, I think, across a lot of topics in terms of both, obviously, influence on both sides, boards influencing CFOs and CFOs influencing boards potentially as well. And also, I guess a heads up for a lot of CFOs that this is something that boards are going to be asking for more and more. And I think I might just finish on that question to yourself is that in the boards that you're working with, how prevalent is this trend? Is it in and is it now expected or is it something that is coming in and becoming more of a trend? 

Unknown: 34:53 

Yeah. 

Patrick Dunne: 34:54 

Very variable. But if you want a view of what's happening across the UK, I'd say it's coming in and it's starting to happen. much more significantly rather than it's there yet. But some people are much, you know, they're early adopters and everything, aren't they? And they've learned a lot and, you know, a lot of us can benefit from the learnings that they've had. But I suspect, you know, most of the accounting firms, consulting firms will be seeing this as an opportunity as well to change thinking on a few things. And so, I suspect, you know, in the early days, part of next year, there'll be quite a lot coming out of the accounting profession, particularly around how you might implement such a change. 

Hannah Munro : 35:51 

Exciting times, hey? And certainly, I'm seeing an echo of what you're talking about in my day-to-day life and certainly the conversations I'm having with CFOs. So, it's great to understand where it's coming from. Because what I find fascinating is the preparation for the unknown, which is the question, which is always an interesting piece, isn't it? In terms of the They're being asked to prep for things they don't actually know what is coming. And certainly, the conversations I have around reporting and analytics is that I don't know what I don't know, and I don't know what I'm going to need, but I need to know that I have the framework in place to be able to analyze it. So, thank you again, Patrick. Some amazing food for thought for all of our CFOs out there. And I love your analogy of the maps to sat-nav worlds, incorporating both the change in process and also the technology as well. So, what a great metaphor. So, for those that are listening and that are interested Thank you. learning more about Patrick. We will pop, again, the link to his LinkedIn in the show notes. I will also put a link to the article. If you get a chance to read it, it's a great article and sums up a lot of the conversation. And I think it's even got that three-minute video that you talked about in there, hasn't it, Patrick? 

Patrick Dunne: 37:13 

Yeah, done in my car. 

Hannah Munro : 37:16 

So, you can admire Patrick's driving skills or his car while he talks through the concept. So, thank you again, Pat, Patrick, wonderful to have you back on the show. And again, you know, some great food for thought for anybody listening. 

Patrick Dunne: 37:31 

Absolutely my pleasure. And just to clarify, I wasn't driving while I recorded it. 

Hannah Munro : 37:36 

Yeah, safety first, safety first. Thanks again. 

Patrick Dunne: 37:40 

Thanks so, much.