60. Managing Accountability Successfully in Finance with Colin McDonagh, FD of TTM

60. Managing Accountability Successfully in Finance with Colin McDonagh, FD of TTM

Hannah Munro : 1:11 

So, hello everybody and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. My name is Hannah Munro and as usual I am your host for the day or the episode, whichever way you want to call it. So, with me today is somebody that we're actually working really closely with at the moment. So, Colin McDonough. So, he is the finance director of TTM. And I was really keen to get him on because they're doing a huge amount or actually, they're going through a big piece of change, but also very excited to talk about the way that they approach accountability. So, welcome, Colin. Awesome to have you on the 

Colin McDonagh: 1:43 

Thank you, Hannah. And thanks very much for having me. 

Hannah Munro : 1:46 

Brilliant. So, tell us a little bit about yourself, Colin. How did you end up at TTM? What was your journey? 

Colin McDonagh: 1:52 

Yeah, so, look, my journey is pretty generic, to be honest. I have a BCom, I went to a Big Four, I trained in Ernst & Young in Dublin, focused quite a lot on financial services. So, I would have audited hedge funds and aircraft leasing companies. The goal was always to move back from Dublin to home, but I just needed to find the right time and the right role. I spent about nine years in Ernst & Young and then the TTM opportunity came along. So, in 2014, straight out of practice thought I knew everything took a role as a financial controller in TTM and I suppose seven years later I'm still here now as a financial director when I joined TTM I think we were just posting somewhere in and around 16 million top line. 80 is now the goal, so, seven years later. So, I think it goes without saying that it's been a bit of a roller coaster ride, one that I never imagined the journey that I could have been on or have been on. But I think the learnings professionally and personally have been super that have come with that. 

Hannah Munro : 2:56 

No, absolutely. And I think that's one of the interesting things about TTM is you guys have gone on a massive growth trajectory over the last few years. So, tell us what do you think has made you so, successful and how has finance supported that? 

Colin McDonagh: 3:11 

Yeah, absolutely. So, look, I think for the outset, for the listeners, TTM is a company, so, we'll manage, supply and deliver healthcare services and solutions to the public, private and not-for-profit sectors in Ireland, Northern Ireland, the UK and somewhat in the Middle East as well. But Hannah, the world continues to change, and the world of traditional recruitment is absolutely no different to this. So, you often think that you've reached your Everest, and you look back, maybe when you take a chance to take a breath and you realize you weren't even at base camp. And I think that's the exciting piece. You know, you have to celebrate the successes. Don't get me wrong. You have to celebrate those successes but always stay ambitious. So, talent solutions in healthcare, it's now a multifaceted industry and we have to continue to evolve along that way. So, when you say the word change, it's such an important word. We continue to change, evolve, and grow. Change, evolve, and grow. So, I heard something, and I'm magpie in this phrase now, but I heard something a couple of years ago that if you stand still for two years, you won't be around in two years more. So, as a business, but also personally, we are conditioned for change. So, we have a key principle in our business of confidence. When you're on top of your game, change your game. And I do think that we live that every day, week, month and year. So, a consistent part of our journey, you know, when we talk about change has been that scaling efficiently matrix. So, you know, you grow with the resources available to you. You realize that you then have to invest. You have to do it at a cost. You take a little dip, and you grow again. But the scaling efficiently matrix is the balancing act is knowing when to invest, knowing not to take that step backwards and maintaining consistent levels of growth. And for me, that ambition and growth is exciting, you know, for myself and, you know, TTM matched that then as well. I think the journey in the current time, though, is almost realizing that we can do anything. but figuring out what that anything is. So, the pandemic has enabled us to evolve outside of traditional talent solutions and more into end-to-end process outsourcing and managed service solutions. To give you one example, we recently vetted over 18,000 professionals at the initial stages of COVID to ensure consistency of staffing levels in the hospitals. So, when you bring it back to change is that I don't believe, well, I know that we don't sit down and go, how do we change? We understand that the world is changing, and we adapt, evolve and grow. 

Hannah Munro : 6:01 

And that's an amazing philosophy to have. But obviously, with that change comes a lot of management of change and account, making sure that each piece of the puzzle is working well, which kind of leads us onto the topic that we wanted to talk about today, which is accountability. So, tell us a little bit about TTM's approach to accountability and how you approach it, I guess, within finance specifically. 

Colin McDonagh: 6:26 

Yeah, absolutely. Look, I think when we talk about accountability, you probably have to learn where you've come from and what made you not necessarily successful, but actually and where you are now. So, to answer, I suppose, a question in terms of is accountability important? The easy answer is to say, of course, it's important. And it can appear very difficult, and it can be made even more difficult, sometimes unnecessarily. So, you know, Hannah, we've found in the business, and I'm sure everyone has found this, is that there isn't a magic wand or a rule book or a set of, a list on how to be accountable or what actually is being accountable or what's best practice when it comes to accountability. Now, you know, ask us the question, what defines one person or one team on being more accountable than the next? Or more importantly, who holds one other one accountable? So, I'm sure we've all experienced what we see in our business is that, or what we have seen in our business is that we have some super, super people. We have a super, the employees within the business. But what you'll see in other businesses is that they don't have a clear vision of the journey or they don't exactly know what their role is. So, how can anyone hold any person accountable if you don't clearly define the expectations of each person or each team within an organization? and I've seen this before, Hannah, and you've probably seen it before, is that you will have companies who create strategic plans and they sit with strategic plans for three to four months within a business. They are done at budget time. It's almost to get to the number, this is what we're going to do. And then they're not looked at again. They're never used again. And it's almost a tick the box exercise. And we do believe within TTM, not just within finance, but actually holistically within TTM, we're a little different. So, between TTM and our group companies, we have created what we call a playbook. It's a living, breathing document. It's prepared every year, and it serves as a dual purpose. Now, we firmly believe that the inputs create the outputs. So, very rarely do you hear us talking about a sales target, a margin target, a profit target. It's very much on the inputs. Now, it's a little bit of a childish and a silly similarity I'm going to give you, but if you think about baking bread. So, everyone's gone mad baking bread in a pandemic, but they all buy the ingredients. You put the ingredients together, you throw it in the oven, then you get the bread. Well, we believe our playbook are the inputs and the contents of the playbook are the inputs and the TTMS is the oven, for want of a better phrase. So, you know, I might just bring you through what the playbook is. So, first off, it's got two purposes, right? First off, it's got a list of it outlines our 15 family principles. Now, these principles, people will say, that's just another word for vision, mission, values. And we'd fundamentally disagree because our 15 family principles are actually the way in which we conduct ourselves day to day and the key behaviours in which we work on. Everything we do within the business, from the day we turn our laptops on, from the second you enter the door, you are held accountable to the principles. So, everything we do is aligned to them. And it am not just words. It underpins our success. So, I'll give you an example of a couple of them would be trust and respect and open and honesty, simplification for clear tracks, realizing potential, have fun and celebrate success, confidence, respect for money. And one I love is, you know, don't, you know, or love tech, don't fear tech. So, and I know a lot of people might hear this and they'll go, what is this guy on about? A set of 15 principles on how to actually live and how to conduct yourself. And we are a little different. And we're okay with that. We're not necessarily for everyone and everyone isn't necessarily for us. So, we won't apologize for that. The second part of the playbook is what we call chapters. So, we've got 10 chapters within our playbook. And in essence, it's our nine main divisions and a catch-all chapter within the business. So, sales, technology, finance, risk, OPEX, people and culture, brand, et cetera. And within the 10 chapters, we work to a structure of high fives. So, every chapter has five topics that we work on daily, weekly, monthly, annually. And within each high five, there's three KPIs. So, what we've done now is that we have created an accountability matrix for every leader and every team and every person within the business that provides clear tracks, which I just spoke about as a principle, and everyone then knows their role on the pitch. So, the playbook lives in the business. So, when we then talk about Well, that's all great. And is that not just a strategic plan? Because that's words and that's a document that's there. And you're telling me it lives in the business, but it's how we actually rate, monitor and measure ourselves. So, our monthly management meetings are a little different. I've been in old style management meetings. I've been in old style board meetings, and they're very much prepare a generic report and 40, 50 pages long. You spend quite a long time doing them and they're ready for an hour of a meeting. So, our management meetings are very, very different and they don't focus on generic reports. They focus on each person's playbook, high five and 15 KPIs. We do not create pages upon pages of information. We actually just rate ourselves green, amber and red. Now you can attach a document. It may not get read, because it's really about the rating exercise. So, you know, when we look at it is we focus on measurements. Can you measure every KPI or high five within the business? Now, again, Hannah, look, I'm talking quite a lot about this, but it is something that we do live and breathe is green, amber, red is another one where, you know, people who are very professionally motivated do not like red. And, you know, the phrase there, you know, red is dead. That's not the case in our business. Ambers and reds are opportunities. And it's taken quite a while, not for us to realize, but for actually to create the culture that reds and ambers are opportunities. So, like, Hannah, you manage teams, and we all manage teams. And I'm sure your listeners manage teams. And there are things that don't. maybe just don't get done or they haven't been as good as what they were last month. But that's the opportunity to excel. So, imagine if you turn all your ambers and reds, green, how good you can be. So, you've got to see at the opportunity and everything that's red or amber. If you're all green, if 15 people put 15 things green, I'll find you a couple of lawyers within that group. 

Unknown: 13:56 

Yeah. 

Hannah Munro : 13:57 

Yeah. And going back to your baking bread analogy as well, because it's not just about obviously the output and what you're delivering. It's almost how you deliver it, isn't it? Because people can say that they've hit something, but have they hit it well? And have they done it in a way in your case, which is in keeping with your family principles and the way that you guys operate? So, how do you manage that sort of that black and white KPI piece? with the, you know, like if we go back to, like I said, baking bread is you can put the inputs in and the ingredients in, but how well are you actually kneading the bread? How have you set the temperature right on the oven when it's working? So, how do you guys manage the intangible stuff that goes around sort of those KPIs? 

Colin McDonagh: 14:44 

Yeah, no, it's a really interesting piece because you're right. You can throw everything together, throw it in the oven and you might get a poor-quality bread. I think, you know, for us, we would work a lot on confidence. And a couple of words would stand out for me there around knowledge and confidence and knowledge breeds confidence. So, you know, if I even bring it to myself in terms of, you know, from an accountant, from an FD role and setting KPIs and high fives, it's very easy for me to say, I'm going to get the reports out monthly. It's easier for me to say, I'll just monitor our forecasts, and I'll take something from everyone else. But actually, am I adding value to the business? So, when we then look at the accountability and KPIs, it's not just that you create something and you think you're doing a great job. It's that realizing you are part of a high performing energetic team who has a strategic goal and vision and is everyone's KPIs all leading towards that. And it's not the destination. It's very much, are you on the one journey? I think, you know, one of the key things as well, and, you know, maybe for something later on, but in terms of how do you actually go about this in a group and how do you hold one person accountable to the next one? So, you know, without repeating myself, as I said, a key principle for us would be the simplification of clear tracks. So, do not complicate things unnecessarily. Keep it simple. And it's something I would struggle with, if I'm being honest. I think it's very easy in a finance role to complicate. We're the holder of thousands of data points, but you've got to keep it simple. Are you adding insights and actions? And the second part of that is the clear tracks piece. Does everyone know what's expected of them? And does everyone have a clear track? Now, if they don't have a clear track, go get them one. And if you do, work on the high fives, KPIs and principles. And I know that this sounds easy. And I know that it sounds very easy to say, let's just give somebody the clear track. But the hard part is holding yourself and others accountable for the tracks. But you've got to get the simple bit in place first, and then your principles kick in. So, a cornerstone for us of our trust and respect and open and honesty principle is that Things are personal, but you do not make or take them personally. So, you've got to embrace open and honest feedback. As long as the giver of that feedback does not cross the line, we don't hold away from difficult conversations. I have a phrase that I use, and I use this quite a lot. I may even have used it with you in a couple of meetings; is there's no such thing as difficult conversations. They are just conversations. And it doesn't happen overnight, Hannah. It's a consistent work in progress. When we first brought the open and honesty principle into the business, a lot of people, including myself, to my detriment, saw it as an opportunity just to tell everyone what they weren't doing right. And it's not the right thing to do. Exactly. It's not, you know, people will say, well, that's great. I'm going to be very honest. And Hannah, I'm going to tell you the 15 things that that you haven't done right. But don't you dare come and tell me the 10 that I'm not doing right. So, you've got to find that right balance. And that's why on a monthly basis; we collectively rate ourselves to our principal. And that's what's very different from TTM to other businesses is we actually sit down virtually now these days. We'll go through all 15 principles. It has nothing to do with the day job. It's very much from a principal's perspective. And this allows for the feedback to occur. So, are we being true to our principles? You might be very honest, but did you cross the respect line when you were given the honest feedback? Are you owning your position on the pitch? Did you work on your weaknesses? Do you even know your weaknesses? Do you know yourself? Do you know the person that you're dealing with? And do you know maybe what their strengths and weaknesses are or how they like to be dealt with? So, I suppose to cut a long-winded answer very short, Anna, you've got to set the examples by doing. You create the culture of accountability through openness and honesty. And all it does is it takes one person to start setting that example of holding themselves and others to account. And that starts creating high performing energetic teams. 

Hannah Munro : 19:33 

So, when you say, so, in terms of how you actually manage the accountability and designating who is accountable for what, how do you manage that process internally? Are you doing it in documents? Is it conversational? What are you doing? 

Colin McDonagh: 19:48 

Yeah, so, I suppose there's two things there. One is actually the alignment and the deployment of people who are responsible and the second one about how we monitor and measure it. And again, let's go back to a key principle of simplification. Let's not complicate this. Does it need 55 different types of spreadsheets or having meetings about meetings about who's going to set up a meeting? It's very, very simple. So, you know, we have leaders within our business. So, myself as the finance leader and a super financial controller under me, Elaine. So, we will manage finance and risk. So, we know from an ownership perspective, we're the right place to manage and own those chapters within the business. From a monitor and measure perspective, there's no Word documents, no Excel spreadsheets. We have embraced technology. We use a very, very simple project management platform. It's all online based. We go on and it's all the KPIs are listed. And literally we have it set up that says, are you red, amber, green? And without saying it's red, amber, green, green is yes, we're there. Red or amber is we're working on it. And red is not got to it yet. So, we don't necessarily want to say you haven't done your job. But what we are saying is we all understand from an accountability perspective, I've got to get to this. I just may not have other results coming out of this aren't exactly as we've expected. 

Hannah Munro : 21:14 

Awesome. So, in terms of within finance, how do you, obviously as a leader of finance, how do you manage the process of delegation of accountability? Because that, you know, in order to step out into the value-add piece that, you know, you need to be able to do as a finance leader, actually being able to delegate those tasks is critical to success. So, how do you manage it? 

Colin McDonagh: 21:39 

Yeah, it's really interesting because it is probably... one of my weaknesses in the sense of, you know, do I always have to be involved in everything? And that's something I work on. That is absolutely something I work on. Am I limiting other people realize their potential by being involved in something that I don't have to be? And then I'm not actually adding value as an FD where I could be from a strategic perspective. So, I think one of the key learnings for me in that way is that you have to empower your team. So, it is all well and good that we say at a leadership level, we rate ourselves, we rate our KPIs, we rate our high fives, we rate our principles. It doesn't stop there. It happens all throughout the business. So, from a finance perspective, every single person has a high five. They've got three KPIs within their high five and it's a consistent approach. It's consistent for all the right reasons. I suppose, you know, in the sense of why do something different at different levels of the business. Let's just keep it as consistent as you can. But if I go back to in terms of the A delegation won, but actually I'd probably flip the coin a little bit more positively on that in the sense of empower your team. So, you know, it is absolutely a cliche, but it's also true is that you were only as good as the team around you. So, there's been so, many examples of you being in projects, meetings, spreadsheets, and what accountant doesn't love multiple spreadsheets? And you know full well that actually you don't need to be there. So, like, you know, everyone take a step back and ask yourself, what am I trying to achieve by doing this? Or who am I trying to impress by doing this? Whereby if you educate and communicate to your team, you're actually building confidence in your team. You're building a high-performance culture. Because do you know what, Hannah? You might just be surprised with how good your team are. So, that piece around empowering your team and the people around you will actually realize their potential, which is a key principle for us. But let me be selfish for 30 seconds. It might actually help me realize my potential too. 

Hannah Munro : 23:58 

Yeah. And do you know what? It's a really interesting pickup point you made there about terminology, because like you say, delegate does almost have connotations, doesn't it? Negative connotations. So, actually talking about it as empowering them to step up is almost like a changing word and a changing approach. 

Colin McDonagh: 24:17 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's it. It's just a flip of the coin. And again, it's not something that comes overnight or anything, but you work on that. So, you work on it from yourself to understand. As I said, we've got so, many great people around us, but do we know what makes them tick? Do we know what motivates our people? And, you know, what I've noticed with the teams that I have been lucky enough to work with is that my teams are ambitious and they're motivated. So, don't just do the same thing all the time. Keep learning. Keep learning and enable our people to learn. 

Hannah Munro : 24:54 

Absolutely. So, I'm going to pull out a piece. So, I heard this obviously in our conversations outside of this podcast, the concept of iRaw. Can you, and I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that right, but I've heard you mention it a few times. So, tell us a little bit about that concept, what it is and how it works at CTM. 

Colin McDonagh: 25:16 

Absolutely. So, a key principle that we have is IROR. I don't think we can patent it, but at the same time, I haven't heard many companies use the term IROR. So, for us, it stands for Individual Radical Ownership and Responsibility. And I might actually just read our own little blurb on it. Here I have it in front of me. It says, we own our position on the pitch and on the team. We know if everybody accepts this responsibility, we win. We don't want to let our teammates down. So, if you put that into, you know, practice and what we do around, you know, some people might hear the phrase radical ownership and responsibility and again go, what are these guys on about? So, I started this conversation, Hannah, telling you, we don't apologize for being a little bit different. We may not be for everyone, and everyone may not be for us. And that's absolutely fine. But IROAR for us is very key in the sense of if you commit to doing something, you're doing something. I might tell one of my colleagues that I might be having a problem thinking, well, now I've shared my problem, so, I've halved my problem. You haven't. What you're doing is you're just vocalizing that you have a problem. You still have an eye roar around it. So, we use eye roar quite a lot as a key principle within the business. on deadlines, on projects, on deliverables. And I think actually even taking a step up at our level, we use iRoar quite a lot on high level investment and growth and projects within the business. So, when we do business case everything in terms of when we have to do a business case, we will get people to sign that off. And we sign that off because that creates an element of responsibility and ownership behind that project. It is very easy, and I've sat in finance teams, and I've sat everywhere where I'm going to make the model work because I know I can make a model or a budget work with the numbers. I'll present that and sure doesn't it look excellent. But actually, six months down the line, do we rate ourselves against what we said we would do? And what we found is by introducing iROAR and actually creating a culture of responsibility and ownership within the business, Again, I'm going to use the same phrase, though. You're creating high performance teams because we don't want to let each other down. So, if I talk about even You know, any type of a project, whether it's within the team, we all know within the team what our part to play is on that project. And we absolutely talk about who has eye roll over each individual aspect of it. And it's done in that way. And then if you cascade that up to every level through a management and leadership and an executive level, it is run in exactly the same way. So, consistency is key for us in that manner. 

Hannah Munro : 28:07 

No, absolutely. And it's an interesting concept, isn't it? Because it You would see it from both levels. Obviously, you would be given, obviously, the accountability from the MD and the senior exec and the board of directors, but then you would also be managing your team. Is there an element of managing that concept and those principles upwards? So, up into the board of directors, up into the chief exec? How does that process work in the interest of opening responsibility? 

Colin McDonagh: 28:42 

Yeah, absolutely. Look, I think to be fair, you hit on an interesting point first that I might deal with in terms of being part of two teams. And I think you're absolutely right. I think anyone in a leadership level who thinks they're just part of a leadership team is incorrect or who might think they're just part of the finance team is incorrect. There's a little matrix that goes on that you are part of two teams. And I think that's why people in our position it’s key that we manage even from a principal's perspective, but also if you just focus on IROR, you're the cog between those two teams. And it's very easy to kind of stand on the parapet to say to your own teams who has iROAR and then not do it upwards. So, we actually do quite a lot of work and partnerships with our shareholders, our board of directors, and we work on the same. So, it is no different. So, our board and our ownership group and our shareholder group do the same type of development and framework that we do. So, it's not a new concept. It's not something that we just keep to the confines of our office, and we lock all the doors, lock all the windows, and we never talk about it when we get into board meetings. It is exactly the same principles on how we do that. And absolutely, have there been times when the board have called us out on eye roar, open and honesty, the trust and respect, and given us open and honest feedback? They absolutely have. But I think through their credit, they also see it as a way that they want it back from us too. And that happens. And we're given the forum at times for that cohort to learn, to see, is there anything they can get better at? How would you rate? And it's almost like a 360-conversation type. And don't get me wrong, Hannah, there are times when you're going, I shouldn't say this. There's no way I should be saying something like this. Exactly. But let's just take it back a step. And we've said, as long as you don't cross the line and you don't make it personal and you don't take it personal, it's just a conversation. 

Hannah Munro : 30:55 

Yeah. And I think that's a really good piece. It's like you say, it's not making it personal. It's constructive, open, respectful feedback. That's always the hard balance, isn't it? Helping people understand how to give it in that way and how to... how to do it, you know, but also how to accept it as well. That's always a 

Colin McDonagh: 31:15 

challenge. Yeah, 100%. And like, there's quite a lot of literature out there about high performing sports teams. And in particular, you know, rugby would be one that would be used quite a lot in terms of all, there's a book, The All Blacks About Their Principles. We've actually just come off recently a session with a, an Irish, a former Irish rugby player. And they talk about the feedback, but the transition about moving that type of real open and honest cutthroat feedback into the business life. And it is something that you can't actually talk to people the way that I think that people would talk to people on a rugby pitch or on a sports field, but you can actually use the principles of to create the highest performing culture and the highest performing teams, there's a set of principles that you can still live by and abide by that will get you to a position of, you know, balancing this is business, not a sports field, but at the same time getting the right answer and creating that high performance team. Because that's what it's about, is like realizing the potential of everyone, me included, of everyone around you, to actually to be the best that they can be, I think there's no better win in life or definitely in work than knowing that you're helping people realise their potential. 

Hannah Munro : 32:35 

No, absolutely. It's one of my passions as well. So, I fully, you know, when you see people grow and develop and you see how, where they end up, it's the, you know, it is the general, you know, it's a real buzz to see them grow and develop. 

Colin McDonagh: 32:49 

It is. And, you know, not to be company specific or anything like that, but, you know, it's something that we've worked really hard on in terms of our people and realizing potential. 75% of our management group are internal promotions, are people who've come through the door as rookies or as maybe one- or two-years’ experience. Our attrition, so, our turnover is about four years. So, we know that if we have the right foundation and the right people yeah, the right foundation in place that it enables them to realise their potential and grow into management level. And it's super exciting to see people that you may bring through the door and three or four years later, they're actually in the same management meeting that you are because they've lived the values, they've lived the principles, they're doing the right thing and they're motivated to succeed. And look, as I said, it's exciting when you're in a business that does that. 

Hannah Munro : 33:48 

Oh, absolutely. And yeah, no, it's something we at ITAS are super passionate about developing people, about helping them grow. So, yeah, totally on board with all of that. So, for those that are listening and going, that all sounds brilliant in principle. I love the concept of accountability. I want to build a high performing team, but there's an acknowledgement perhaps they're not there at this point in time. How would you approach implementing this, you know, this framework that you've been talking about today? 

Colin McDonagh: 34:19 

Yeah, really interesting question, because as I've alluded to it three times, it's very easy to say these words and living them is a little bit harder. And actually, probably the hardest part is starting and knowing where to start. So, you know, I don't think it's wrong in saying that we probably failed one or two times already. are on the ladder to get here. And what we've been very conscious of over the last three or four years is we may not have that skill set within the business to put us on the ladder, but we definitely may have the skill set to keep continuing the ladder. So, we bring in experts and we bring in experts and consultants from a coaching and a high-performance level that help us along that way. And, you know, don't hold back because they set culture so, we're bringing people in they said it in the first place and you see it like when you are the recipient of some really not necessarily tough feedback but hard feedback that in a previous life you would have taken personally you kind of go well this is what good looks like because I know I won't stand there again to take that feedback because I know what I need to do to improve so, we have a concept of our ninjas And ninjas, I promise, are not people who come in all dressed in black down through the roof and to kick us. But we bring in ninjas into our business who are experts in their field. So, whether it is through individual one-to-one coaching, high performance teams, and we bring them in when we need them. We have one or two who are in our business. two or three times a month. They're there all the time. And then we're able to cherry pick. We have a network of ninjas and consultants who we know, whether it's from a tech, a brand, a finance, a people, a sales, that we know we can push, pull and lever on to bring into the business to enable the accountability and high performance within the business. And that is honestly one of the key things of why I think a lot of businesses start out with really well-intentioned, but don't bring it any further is because they believe they can do it themselves. So, they will do the round hole square peg thing and think, but sure, I know what a high-performance culture is. I'm high performing myself. Let's just put this in because I think it's the right thing. And do you know what else, Hannah? I read it on Google yesterday as well. And I think this is what high-performance teams are doing. It doesn't make sense. Like don't, you know I'm not an expert in people and culture and I'm not an expert in this so, we bring in the people who are experts to do it and you know it's very much aligned to get yourself a mentor role as well so, everyone should have somebody who they can talk to outside of the business to help them grow and you know they're all encompassing it's kind of a 360 thing. 

Hannah Munro : 37:09 

Absolutely and I think Again, I love the concept. We use a lot of external mentors with individuals around particular skill sets, or certainly a lot of my team have those acts. So, I think it does make a difference because you get an outside perspective sometimes, don't you, in terms of, and it can be skill-based, it can be soft skill, hard skill-based or soft skill-based. There's a real benefit to bringing in somebody that's a specialist and building that capability within your team. So, that's a really great. Absolutely. 

Colin McDonagh: 37:40 

No, it really, really is. And that's what we try to do is to have both from a soft skill side and then from a technical. So, we will have technical ninjas like on a finance, on a tech side specifically. And especially even like, it's great to talk. So, it's great to talk about, like, I know I am an FD in a company that, you know, probably the goal on or where we're heading is probably for somewhere around that 80 million mark. So, that can seem quite a lot. But do I have anyone to talk to? And I do. And they're the things that you need. And it comes down, it can be something so, silly as I'm having a bad day, or it can be something as technical as how do I apply X, Y, and Z accounting principle to something, as long as you have somebody on a technical side and somebody on a soft side. 

Hannah Munro : 38:25 

Absolutely. Now, I think we could literally, and we do outside of the podcast, talk all day about various different things. So, I want to say this has been absolutely fantastic, Colin, and thank you for sharing the aspects of accountability, but also sort of from a top level, how that has been driven down, because I think that's a key part from what you've been telling us to your success. So, thank you again for coming on and sharing. Any final thoughts for anyone that's looking to shift and to build that accountability perspective? Anything else that you think they just need to bear in mind before they start? Any learnings that you picked up along the way? 

Colin McDonagh: 39:08 

Yeah, look, I think there's a couple of learnings from a more macro business side is what we do works for us. It may not work for somebody else. So, we've heard lots of stories of people just magpieing principles and values and then just trying to pigeonhole them into their own company. Each company tells their own story because each company has a different culture. You should set your principles and the way you work to your culture and how you want your culture to be. And again, I think... You know, just to learn that it doesn't happen overnight, it is definitely a work in progress. But with the right inputs, you will learn, and you will reap the benefits in your outputs. 

Hannah Munro : 39:53 

Amazing. Well, thank you so, much, Colin. So, if anyone wants to sort of learn more about you guys and all yourself and what you guys are doing, what's the best place to find more about TTM and perhaps yourself? 

Colin McDonagh: 40:12 

Yeah, so, I think the best place is to, you can reach out via LinkedIn. So, I'm there, Colin McDonough, and then through our website on TTM Healthcare. So, you can reach out via there as well. 

Hannah Munro : 40:24 

Fabulous. Well, thank you, Colin. It's been amazing having you on the show. You've been a brilliant guest. So, thank you again. No, 

Colin McDonagh: 40:31 

thank you very much. And thanks for having me.