53. Leading on Diversity in Finance - with Kay Formanek

53. Leading on Diversity in Finance - with Kay Formanek

Hannah Munro: 1:11 

So, hello everybody and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. It's brilliant to have all of you guys back. And with me today is Kay Formanek. So, today we are going to be talking about diversity inclusion. And when it comes to diversity, Kay is a long-time passionate supporter of that. And in fact, she is not only a former Accenture Managing Director, but she's actually the author of an upcoming book called Leading Diversity with Purpose and Inclusion. So, welcome, Kay. It's lovely to have you on the show. It's wonderful to be here and so, lovely to be speaking about 

Kay Formanek: 1:50 

important topic. 

Hannah Munro: 1:52 

Absolutely. So, tell us a little bit about yourself, Kate. So, what is your journey and has diversity always been a lifelong passion or is it something that has sort of come to you on your journey and your travels? 

Unknown: 2:06 

Absolutely. 

Kay Formanek: 2:07 

Well, thank you for the question. You know, often I say to the students that I teach, I teach at a number of business schools and, you know, the organizations that I serve, that it wasn't so, much that I chose diversity. I almost feel that diversity chose me. And I say that because of the journey. I was born to Austrian immigrants in South Africa at the time of apartheid. So, you know, ever since my birth, we really have seen episodes such as Sharpeville and Soweto riots and the Rubicon speech. And it really does something to a child to be actually born in a country where you have legalized discrimination. And I thankfully was born in a family where my father and mother always asked my sister and myself to take a stand. What did we think about apartheid? boarding school, which was a multiracial boarding school. So, on the one hand, you have legalized discrimination. On the other side, you're living sort of with a rainbow nation in a boarding school, and that is your family. And that really started the journey of thinking about diversity. Why do we discriminate? Why do we have bias? I was certainly enabled on my journey by my sister. She was born prematurely, and she would be classified as a person with disabilities. And I saw this incredible lawyer and poet who was so, much the victim actually of bias. So, that led me to a voyage also in my career of assuming D&I lead, writing about diversity, researching diversity. 

Hannah Munro: 3:59 

So, where do you think this lack of diversity come from? Why do people discriminate? What drives that kind of behaviour? It's a 

Kay Formanek: 4:12 

wonderful question because once one really understands the answer to that, one can start doing things and moving the needle. The reality is that each of us are born with this incredible brain that becomes hardwired during our life journey and very much through the situations that we've been exposed, which in itself is impacted by society and our norms. And what occurs very, very early in our childhood is we start distinguishing between an in-group, people that we feel comfortable with, and an out-group. And this occurs very automatically and, in fact, is part of our whole survival drive. Unfortunately, what occurs is that it becomes very unwitting, an unconscious bias, a preference to be with people that are people like us, and it means that very unwittingly we start discriminating and keeping people on the outskirts of our group. 

Hannah Munro: 5:21 

So, you said a really interesting comment there, which was people like us. So, is the definition of people like us what actually leads to discrimination? So, how people identify and how they see themselves? 

Kay Formanek: 5:36 

Yes. What occurs is we look around our society, you know, the people that we go to school with, the people that we are in a team with, and we start identifying the characteristics that connect us. And so, anyone who doesn't meet that definition, we regard as an art group. And what is so, very interesting is that we tend to be more compassionate. We tend to be more interested to people that we identify with. So, if you've lived in your whole life in a very protected way, or you've worked in an organization where there's been a very dominant homogeneous group, you try to fit in. And in fact, you're not alone. unwittingly you keep other people out. We must not forget that in some societies we do it quite deliberately. I spoke about South Africa. We had apartheid. It was a deliberate system to exclude people from opportunities. But what you'll see also is that there are countries where there is a class system, where we try to differentiate people who have education or not, people who are in the in-group or not. So, it is very much something that plays for us personally, but also within our society. And we just have to be so, mindful about that. 

Hannah Munro: 6:57 

Yeah, because you talked a lot about unconscious bias, versus conscious discrimination. So, how often is discrimination unconscious versus a conscious approach? 

Kay Formanek: 7:12 

It's a very interesting question. You know, if you look at a continuum, there is a continuum of legalized discrimination. We talked about apartheid. Then you've got systems where there is systemic bias. Many people will say it's not conscious. But if you look at the laws, so, often we talk about the United States, the concept of redlining. which talked about giving loans dependent in terms of the postcode of the suburb that you lived. And if you didn't live there, you wouldn't get the loans, which in effect means that you can't settle where you wish to settle. But in countries such as the UK or the Netherlands, we also have these type of systemic norms. a woman working full-time in a work environment. And part of that is a sort of societal norm of what constitutes good motherhood. So, on the one side, you've got apartheid legalized, but then you have this more societal norms and values that excludes. And then you do have something that is very unconscious. When we mean unconscious, Cognitively, you're not aware of it. It is something where there is a knee-jerk reaction. An example that you might know is the Boston Symphony Orchestra, where they wish to have more women within their orchestra. They weren't getting these women. And so, what they were doing is to say, let us have blind auditions so, we have no unconscious bias. They didn't see an impact. And then they realized that there was a clickety-clack of students that led to a sensory attention point that, oh, this is a woman auditioning and would trigger an unconscious bias that maybe men are more proficient in an orchestra. So, what happens is that at the point that you're starting to able understand where these biases might occur, you can actually mitigate them. So, we've got this whole continuum. And indeed, a great deal is unconscious. And in our society of social media, what you're seeing is that we're talking about it more. And you certainly see younger people are less biased than the older generations because they're more aware of it. 

Hannah Munro: 9:52 

And I guess the question is, what is the importance to organizations and to corporates and to finance teams specifically? What is the importance of addressing this diversity issue, whether it's conscious, systemic or unconscious? What are the elements that, why do we actually need to address it in the first place? 

Kay Formanek: 10:19 

There are so, many reasons to be addressing this. I am delighted to see that organizations, whether they're profit or nonprofit, are starting to look at diversity not as a nice to have, not only because of the legal requirements of not having class actions or facing quota issues if you're within Europe, but there is a sense that diversity creates performance. There is a business case. Equally, with recognition to our younger millennials and our Generation Z, these are our youth of today under 22 who are going to be going into the marketplace. This authenticity, the advancement of equity, diversity is very important for feeling at home. And so, for leaders, they're starting to recognize that in order to have their longevity, their agility, to be able to attract people, they're going to have to take diversity very seriously. The problem, and to your question, is that if you have the commitment to do that, but you are unaware that unwittingly you're keeping out that diversity because there are talent blind spots and biases, then there is an issue. And this is why there is so, much attention on the area of unconscious bias. 

Hannah Munro: 11:48 

So, if we just take a pause and actually, what do we mean by diversity? Because we've talked a lot about, obviously, class, about you mentioned, obviously, your sister. So, talk to us about how wide is diversity? What does it include? What are the different diverse groups that we need to be either conscious of or thinking about when we're understanding this bias piece? 

Unknown: 12:13 

Yeah. 

Kay Formanek: 12:15 

I believe that one of the most helpful models is actually a model by Rowe, and I name it because many people think that diversity is what we call inherited diversity. demographics, you know, inherited characteristics. And that indeed, we talk about age and gender and ethnicity and race and ability, etc. And I can understand why people defined it as such, because if you look at the Constitution of the United States, Chapter 7, they just said, thou shalt not discriminate on the basis of all these inherited characteristics. What we're recognizing how as we're really looking at the lens of diversity is that it's a factor of more layers. One is your inherited demographics, your characteristics. But then it can be also your acquired characteristics. Where did I live? What cultures am I aware of? What education did I have? What is my specialization? Am I a mother or not? Et cetera, et cetera. And diversity also comes from the organization that you've had. have the privilege for working. So, there are many organizations that say we want to have diversity of organizational experience. And last but not least, we need to recognize that each person is diverse in a unique way in terms of their values, their beliefs, their likes, dislikes. So, diversity is the bundle of inherited characteristics, acquired, organizational, and what we would call the personality dimensions. 

Hannah Munro: 13:57 

I love that. I guess that also poses some challenges though, doesn't it? Because we're broadening it out from measurable outcomes necessarily sort of inherited characteristics that might be tracked into a much broader range around your working history, where you've come from your current, you know, whether you're a mother, whether you're a father and how that impacts on you as an individual. So, how do we understand the diversity of our teams? Is there a way to measure how diverse we are as a workforce? 

Unknown: 14:32 

Yeah. 

Kay Formanek: 14:33 

Such an important question. And it leads me to highlight that when you're talking about diversity and what dimensions you wish and how you're going to measure it, that fundamentally you need to start by being clear about why you need diversity. In the book, Beyond D&I, Leading Diversity with Purpose and Inclusiveness, what I talk about is the strategic narrative for diversity. So, if, for example, you're a consumer goods organization and you say that diversity is important for us because we wish to have better customer congruence, which means we wish to better understand our customers so, we can serve them. And we're wanting diversity because we know That's true diversity and inclusion. People have more engagement, loyalty. They're being more creative in the development of products and services. Well, then that's clear. And an organization needs to say that we are looking at diversity because of diversity. these reasons. Having said that, you are better able to identify the dimensions of diversity that you need to. So, if, for example, I have a customer group that is from very different ethnicities and cultures, that potentially 80% of the consumers are women with children, well, then obviously my people that I'm going to be attracting need to resonate with my customer group. On the other hand, If your intent is, and I talk about the Central Bank of Ireland as a good case study, if you say our mandate is to manage risk on behalf of our citizens, and in order to do that, we need different specializations so, we can anticipate financial risk and respond to it, then perhaps what you're trying to do is ensure that the dimensions of multiple Thank you very much. For the consumer goods, how would you measure that you have diversity? Well, it is the feedback from your customers that you've anticipated their requirements and that there is a congruence. And there are many ways of measuring that. For the central bank, it would be what is our ability to anticipate risk. And obviously, in 2008, they were not able to, but they're in a better place to do so, So, it becomes very strategic. I often speak That diversity is about the mind, the heart, the will, and it is an art and a science. We need to start looking at diversity in a business way, in a scientific way, and we need to treat it more strategically. 

Hannah Munro: 17:50 

So, what you talked about there was very much the strategic outcomes of focusing on diversity, about measuring sort of the impact that diversity has had on the business. But obviously to get into that place, you have to measure your progress with implementing a diversity policy. So, how would you firstly assess your current position? You know, what are the leading and maybe lag metrics that you need to be aware of in terms of measuring your diversity? Wonderful. 

Kay Formanek: 18:19 

So, it starts by understanding that when you're measuring diversity, that there are five elements that lead to that diversity performance. We've spoken about diversity dimensions. We've also spoken about inclusion. Inclusion is a psychological safety. What is the point of inviting diversity in if the diversity can't show the perspectives because it feels unsafe to do so, but it also requires equity. We spoke a lot about bias. Equity is about fairness. It's access to resources. It's access to sponsorship. So, you need to advance that fairness, equity. But very importantly, you need the purpose that we were talking about and the leadership, the inclusive leadership. We have found that 70% of people's feeling of being in an inclusive environment is directly related to how leaders behave. So, those are the five elements. So, to your question, how do you measure? The first is that you need to understand where you're going and that leads to what we define as a stage of diversity that is important. There are five stages. The first stage is organizations that who are just wanting to support the legal prerequisites or requirements. The second one are the organizations who want to not be penalized by their stakeholders, employees or their customers. The third one is the one who wants to get performance out of diversity. The fourth is one who wants to use diversity to facilitate transformation. And the last, for example, like a Unilever looks at diversity as a strategic anchor for advancing societal value. So, once the organization is clear about Why is it doing diversity and what stage it needs to get to? Then there is a possibility to assess you against those five elements that I mentioned. And so, to your point, how do I measure? You need to understand at what level Do you need your diversity, your inclusion, your equity, your inclusive leadership, the type of purpose in order to satisfy that imperative? And there are methods to be measuring that. And these are explained. 

Hannah Munro: 21:00 

So, I guess if we think about then the journey that we might go on, it sounds like there is firstly, like you say, a clarity of purpose. So, why are we actually implementing this diversity policy in the first place? What are we looking to achieve and how are we going to measure that? The second is then an assessment of where are we at? So, in terms of, so, how do we then, you know, the next question we're asking is how do we fill that gap? How do we shift from actually firstly having identified that there is a diversity bias of some kind whether that's systemic, whether that's demographic, et cetera, to actually getting to a point where that diversity is in place and managed. So, what are some of the, I guess, the policies, the processes that we can go through to enable our teams, our HR to actually support that journey? 

Kay Formanek: 21:51 

So, I think you've summarized it very well. It starts with where are we going? and why do we need diversity? And as you said, it's then having a sense of where are we now? What is the gap? It is about closing the gap. And in fact, what all the research that has been done is suggesting that there are six things that need to be done in order to close the gap. The first one we spoke extensively about, but it is in terms of mitigating bias. And that means for the diversity journey that I'm on and for the dimensions of diversity that need to be in place, what are the most critical talent blind spots that are creating a barrier to get the diversity and retain the diversity? And it is always contextual because every organization will not only need to think about their journey, but the context in which they're living, because that society will also have the specific systemic biases. The second one is translating the diversity purpose to clear goals, which says, this is what we want to achieve. These are the investments that we're going to make. How do we know that we're going to get that return? And I say it because if you, for example, even look at a territory like United States. They spent $8 billion on forging diversity journeys. And many people say that perhaps as much as 80% is not seen to be translating to real benefits. So, it's really building the case of what are our strategic goals? What investments are we going to do? Are they the right initiatives? How do we measure success? Then it is about embedding behaviour. Once we know that leaders need to walk the talk and have a 70% impact on inclusion, which is so, important, we need to define what is inclusive leadership. What are the values, the rituals, the daily practices that are going to create a bedrock for diversity to thrive? The next point, and the fourth one, is what we call putting the policies in place. My research has shown that, in fact, policies are usually top-down and usually by leaders who are not in the minority groups. So, there is a huge gap in the policies that are being instigated versus appreciated as creating value. And what research has shown is that, for example, a very simple policy, zero tolerance in discrimination, if it's put out there and in fact managed and made to apply, it's a very important policy. Then you need to, in fact, measure and monitor what you've been talking. What are the KPIs, the key performance indicators? What are the stretch goals? How are we going to measure it and making it available, but also, especially for leadership, creating an incentive that they are directly accountable for those. And then last but not least, and the sixth capability is to celebrate and sustain. Diversity journeys are not easy. They're never completed. It's not a project with an end. And you need to celebrate achievements. Otherwise, you will become just too. 

Hannah Munro: 25:38 

weary. So, in terms of diversity programs, you mentioned a really interesting statistic about how 80% of diversity programs or spend may not even be driving impact, which is slightly scary as well as quite interesting. So, what are some of the initiatives that you have seen put in place that have driven impact? What made those work? And can you share some examples or stories with us? Yes. 

Kay Formanek: 26:06 

There's been some wonderful research actually by BCG that I drew on and extended, and they effectively looked at something like 40 different policies that are being put in place and also initiatives. And the success starts by being very methodical about what dimensions of diversity are you inviting in and what constitutes value. And what is interesting, we tend to cluster diversity as a sort of mass group. Well, when you really look into the dimensions of diversity, different dimensions might value different initiatives and policies different. So, for example, what we've seen is people of colour are very anxious about bias that occurs in terms of the recruiting process. So, any policies to mitigate bias at time of recruitment are important. What do I mean? It means that there are clear criteria, no open questions that are usually seen as very conducive to stimulating bias, that there's not only one person on the panel to recruit, but that there is a jury of recruiters who each evaluate, that people are not being looked at in terms of the school, their hobbies, but are in fact being looked in terms of their competency. So, those initiatives are very important for people who are at the broad side of unconscious bias. If you look at many women, especially with children, the flexibility initiatives to encourage flexibility at work, a hybrid way of working, being mindful that you don't have drinks after work on a Friday, which is the only networking environment, are very important. What we see within the LGBTQ plus community, that organizations are out there and endorsing the community and the importance and are part of key celebratory events. That is important. Now, what I don't want to do is create a stereotype of which policies apply, because what we've just said, diversity is that each person is unique, and I may like one or more of these policies. But what I'm saying is that there needs to be an attention to detail. And often, organizations can go out to the resource groups or the diversity communities and say, we are considering these. Are they valuable? Or can you please suggest to us something that would be very valuable to you in terms of building your belonging and your sense of inclusion and purpose within our organization? So, don't do top-down. Invite to get some input. 

Hannah Munro: 29:14 

I think that's a really interesting point about going out for ideas as well, because sometimes as a leader, you think you know that the answer in terms of new policies, but actually, like you say, it can be driven by some unconscious requirements. And I must admit, it's quite interesting, some of the comments you made around hobbies, because I never even considered that that could be an unconscious bias piece on things like applications. So, that's a really interesting point. 

Kay Formanek: 29:48 

So,... If you don't mind, just on the hobbies, there are these incredible studies which actually showed that there was a resume, a fictitious resume that was written, and it was directed at law firms. And on one of the set of resumes, it said that the person played polo. And on the other set of resumes, identical resume, it said that they had a bursary for running from a university. So, clearly, what someone could look at is anticipate that the person with the polo came from perhaps a society or family that was well-meaned, wealthy, well-connected, and the other one, you know, really needed a bursary. And what they saw is that in fact, there was a huge preference for the person with the polar. And this is why often I say, be very careful about asking these type of things. They create a bias, they create stereotypes, and you overlook the essence of the person coming in. 

Hannah Munro: 31:03 

That is a really interesting thinking point around. So, let's just focus down on the recruitment piece, because it all starts with how you get a diverse range of people into your organization. We can talk a little bit about, obviously, inclusivity as part of the leadership function, but what are some of what other examples can you share with us of where either unconscious or bias might come through in terms of recruitment? Your piece around seeing the person is quite an interesting comment. Yes. 

Kay Formanek: 31:44 

So, what we know is that there are a number of biases that are triggered at the time of recruiting. And if you don't mind me also mentioning, even before recruiting, I did research for a country in Europe who were trying to evaluate why not more women were going into STEM, science, technology, engineering, and maths. And they saw that a lot of the students had done master’s in science, technology, and yet at the time of recruitment, they didn't go into that area where they had done masters, but they jumped, and they were interested. And it actually came right at the moment that the profile was released. We see that often the profile is written in very masculine terms. And for many of the women students, it didn't appeal to them. At the moment that you talk about, we need someone to drive a performance, to achieve results, to lead a team, etc. It's quite intimidating. And often what we see is that our younger generation, and also very particularly for women in this country, they want to be appealed as, to be collaborating with a team, to achieve results together, leading with purpose. So, the very way of writing the profile made them think this is not for me. But at a time of recruiting, as I said, there is a huge bias in terms of name. So, this is why sometimes the surname is dropped. We tend in Western societies like names that are Anglo-Saxon Western, like Jennifer Brown or John Brown. And so, a name is very important. What we see is, and there's this very interesting experiment, which was done where it was possible to glean that there was as a person of colour or a person who was Caucasian. Now, we're not allowed to measure that, but you could see it within the resume. You see, unfortunately, a callback for people who identified as Western Caucasian being higher than those who identified as being people of colour. You see that there is a bias to beauty, how you look, how tall you are, et cetera. We see that there is a bias in Western societies When we look at someone, we want someone to look in our eyes. We often say, you know, eyes are the window to the soul, but there are many cultures as a sign of respect that lower their head and their eyes, not to show that they're disrespectful, but as a sign of respect. So, all of these things need to be identified. And we need to say for the diversity dimension that we are looking for, which of these triggers are we aware of and how do we take them out? And so, the recruiting area is critical. 

Hannah Munro: 35:07 

that is genuinely fascinating because actually you would that you can quite easily understand having listened to some of the examples that you talk about how easy it is for unconscious bias to feed into the recruitment process so, you know other success metrics obviously you mentioned in terms of hiding for you know hiding names obviously when identifying CVS obviously changing some of the questions that you're looking at um is there a piece around doing blind interviews so, phone based interviews versus video are there any other tips or tricks you can give to our listeners about how they can try and address the bias that they're unconsciously implementing 

Kay Formanek: 35:50 

So, thank you. First of all, there is, when I talk about just the profiles, what is very important is that there is software that can immediately give an index of the type of feminine masculine language in job profiles. Secondly, if we're doing recruiting, indeed, what we see given that height, it plays such a role. Also, the way that you're dressed simply has doing a video conference is a way of mitigating, you know, that whole picture and, you know, coming into the room. So, you already are able to give a little bit of a fair chance. As I mentioned, in terms of the panel, really to focus on the competency. So, in a situation like this that could occur, what would you do? How would you deal with the situation? The other thing that I think is quite important is giving a template how you would want the resume to be done. You know, what we'll see is that sometimes the leading universities, and I see it because I'm part of the universities, they give all the counselling of the perfect resume to deliver. Sometimes you want to create a level playing field for that, that you're saying in your resume, we want to ask you to answer these questions. So, these are some various opportunities that can be done. Yes. 

Hannah Munro: 37:30 

And I love that idea. So, I'm a real passionate believer in building career paths, particularly for young people. And one of the things that I have noticed is the quality of CVs across the board and I love that idea so, for any you know for any of our junior roles I certainly will be implementing CV templates that's a fantastic way to put that forwards because yes you know if they've got good parents that have done CVs before they might understand well good is you know for parents that have been in the world of work and might understand how it should be formatted they might not have that advice from somewhere else so, I think we could probably talk about recruitment processes for the rest of this podcast but I want to shift very quickly on to a comment you made earlier around inclusive leadership so, assuming we've got our recruitment right that we have the you know we're enabling diversity within our recruitment processes how do we ensure that we are providing a level of leadership that makes that person feel safe and feel welcomed into the environment what are some of the things that we need to watch out for once they're on board and within the workplace Wonderful. 

Kay Formanek: 38:46 

You know, once again, what you'll sense in my reply is I always start with the definition because I believe that how you define is how you lead. And so, I start with leaders when we're talking about inclusive leadership and their responsibility. by asking a very simple question. Do you even know what it means to have an inclusive environment? And they usually say, yes, it probably means that there is a sense of belonging and there is a sense of safety. And I indeed build on that and share the research. If you look at what people are saying, they're saying, I feel that I am part of a team. I feel that I can bring myself to work. I feel like I can trust myself. I feel like my work contributes to some purpose. So, these are all things about inclusive. I then say to leaders, be mindful that your behaviour has an impact of 70% on that inclusive environment. And then I say, do you know what it takes to be inclusive leader? Because it starts with the self. And there is some wonderful research that has been done, which talks about the six traits of inclusive leaders. And it comes down that an inclusive leader is committed, because they believe in the case for diversity and it resonates to their personal values. Number two, they're courageous. What means that when they see a discriminatory practice or unwitting bias, they say something every time, not in a very dominant, judgmental way, but in a very humble way. You know, what I see here, can we talk about it? I know it makes me feel uncomfortable, that type of wording. It's about curious. It is someone who is comfortable with ambiguity and as a result is genuinely interested. Are you? What do you think about, et cetera? It is someone who's culturally intelligent, you know, who has taken time to understand how different cultures are coming through, as someone who is collaborative and very important, cognizant of bias. And so, as soon as we've got a mould, a mirror to say to our leaders, these are things that are important for you to be seen as inclusive. And let's now help you be inclusive. And that means ensuring that these six C's that I've just said are there. One, let's discuss the case for diversity and how you contribute. Two, let us allow you to regulate blind spots by teaching you about them and about your own unconscious bias. It is about cultural intelligence training. It is about helping. leaders have courageous discussions, many are committed, but just feel so, uncomfortable saying something. You know, it is about teaching leaders about deep listening, which is the window to being curious, you know, not just listening with the mind, but with the heart, because that's when you see the person beyond the stereotype. So, there are many things we need to do. And it takes organizational interventions. But I have I've never seen a person, a leader, become a good inclusive leader without wanting it personally, being committed to it personally. 

Hannah Munro: 42:32 

I think that's a really great point in that, you know, for any organization to succeed with the diversity efforts, they have to make sure their leadership are on board. It's, you know, it's the same with any kind of transformation journey that you go on. So, obviously working in software, I can relate. But unless you have the buy-in from both leadership and the team, It's an incredibly hard journey. So, I really do believe I could talk to you about this for hours, Kay, but I'm very aware of time. So, firstly, I want to say thank you so, much for sharing your passion for diversity and your knowledge around the research. And I personally have taken a lot away from today and I hope and I'm sure our listeners have as well. If anyone would like to learn more about your work and what you're doing, what is the best place to start? to find you and to find out more about your book as well. 

Kay Formanek: 43:32 

So, first of all, Hannah, I have so, enjoyed your question. So, thank you for that. And there are a number of areas where you could learn more. As Hannah mentioned, I have brought all this 35 years of experience and research, more than 50 organizations in a book, which you mentioned, which is called Beyond D&I, Leading Diversity with Purpose and Inclusiveness. And there is a site which is called Beyond Light. diversityandinclusion.com. And all the models that I talked about is within that site and the book as well. 

Hannah Munro: 44:15 

Wonderful. So, for those that are listening, I would encourage you to obviously look at that site. We will pop the links into the show notes. I want to thank you again, Kay, for your passionate support of diversity and for sharing that knowledge with us, because I think there's a huge amount that we can all learn at all stages of all organisation or teams can about changing our inclusion policy. So, thank you so, much for joining me today.  

Kay Formanek: 44:45 

Thank you very much. And thank you to your listeners for listening.