22. Use Humour to Your Advantage as a Finance Leader with Dr. Vanessa Marcie

22. Use Humour to Your Advantage as a Finance Leader with Dr. Vanessa Marcie

Hannah Munro: 0:48 

Hello and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. My name is Hannah Munro, your host, and with me today is Dr. Vanessa Marcy. So, Dr. Marcy is a humour and leadership expert. She's an international speaker, and she is all about using humour to drive change. She's given over 100 presentations to global audiences of more than 30 countries. She's also worked with a number of large organizations in both private and public sectors. So, it's ones you will know, such as LinkedIn, BPI France, the UK Department of International Trade, and she's also a guest lecturer for some top business schools, including Cambridge, HEC Paris, Oxford University, and Toulouse Business School. So, welcome onto the podcast, Vanessa. It's fantastic to have you with us. 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 1:36 

Hello. Thank you very much for your invitation. I'm thrilled to be here today. So, tell us a little bit about yourself. 

Hannah Munro: 1:43 

How did you end up studying humour and leadership? 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 1:46 

I know that's a very, very peculiar subject area of research. But it all started for me when I actually studied stand-up comedy. So, I was very afraid of public speaking when I was younger, when I started my career. And when I was living and working in London, I discovered stand-up comedy. And I thought, oh, that could be an interesting way to beat the fear. That's a very challenging one. Most people would die rather than going on stage. It's like, hey, let's do this. I can do it. So, I had a two-day workshop and went straight to stage. And that was the most, I mean, I was so, scared. That was the scariest thing. moment of my life I thought I was going to have a stroke before getting on stage but the moment I delivered my routine and when the first person left I felt such a surge of endorphin and happy feeling and I was so, excited I couldn't sleep that night I was like oh my god this is the best feeling in the world and I have never looked back since so, I've been a stand-up comedian for now like something like five years. And it's been, it's been cathartic. It's been healing. It's been wonderful to give the gift of laughter to other people. And so, when I was doing my, I studied, I went back to school a few years ago and I went to Cambridge to study for an EMBA. And the last project was a research project and academic research. And I did my PhD on organizational communication. And I thought, should I do something about my career? And at the time, I was working in marketing, communication, and business development in the public sector. I thought maybe I could do something that would help my career or rather I would do something that I'm passionate about. And I always wanted to understand how we could incorporate more humour into organization. So, actually, we would like to go to work because sometimes it both sucks. 

Hannah Munro: 4:14 

I love that concept of bringing humour into the workplace because there's always that fear, isn't it? Because everyone has a different sense of humour. So, talk to us about some of the benefits of bringing humour into leadership and into the workplace. What have you seen in your studies? 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 4:34 

Oh my God, there are so, many benefits. Actually, all my conferences and training are backed by science. I looked at what other academics have done and there are many benefits such as fostering group cohesiveness or team building and collaboration spirit within your team, which is enhancing collaboration and performance. You also have; it can unleash creativity. And if you work in innovation, I mean, having an innovative team and employees is quite required. It can enhance collaboration, it can enhance communication, So, every message, whatever is it, internal message or with clients, so, it helps for sales as well. So, it's really a useful tool. And it's also an underestimated asset. A lot of people are not using consciously humour or are using the wrong type of humour, which is actually causing a toxic culture in the company. Humour is also helping to build a positive organisational structure. Reducing social distance between people. So, we are talking about social distancing at the moment, but actually it can reduce the distance between hierarchy and subordinates. But it's also a double-edged sword. because it can actually be used to overpower other people. And that's when the negative humour comes in. And lots of people don't see the difference. And I believe that people don't consciously use the wrong type of humour that can cause harm to others. But still, because they are not self-aware, and they are not aware of the benefits and the negatives of humour, they use it, and they hurt other people. And that's with this, the start of toxic culture. 

Hannah Munro: 6:37 

So, tell us, you mentioned a couple of times there, the types, different types of humour. Talk us through what different types that people use in both workplace and personal lives as well. 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 6:48 

So, we often talk about irony and sarcasm, but actually those are subtypes of humour. And those are like at least 20 different types of humour. I'm also a comedian, a stand-up comedian. So, often when I deliver conferences or when I do coach, people are like, oh, can you do a stand-up comedian. I'm like, no, I can't. And I'm like, why? Because I'm a blue comedian. I use a lot of inappropriate jokes. So, this is like a false page on me. So, you know, you deliver in an IRO special or defence company and they're like, yeah. And I'm like, no, I'm not going to talk to you about my last orgasm. 

Hannah Munro: 7:26 

That's not appropriate. Yeah, not quite what you were brought in to help with, to be. 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 7:31 

fair. 

Unknown: 7:33 

Yeah. 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 7:33 

Because you have different type of humour, but mainly what science has found is that there are four main types of humour. So, we are all composed by those types of humour, but some are more dominant than others. So, it's part of our personality. And those types of humour are built through our background and the people we hang out with and the work environment as well. For example, I don't remember my type of humour when I was younger, but when I started my career, it was in male-dominated industries. I started my career as a journalist, and I was the only woman in the newsroom. Then after I worked in the oil and gas and in a refinery it was like we were 20 women for uh out of 400 people and I worked in innovation in tech it's so, many in finance many uh you know male dominated industries so, my sense of humour was a way to adapt and to be included what that means is that If a man is using an aggressive type of humour, or in France we use a lot of sexual jokes, I would use the same type of humour. And I didn't even think about it. It just, you know, became natural. I accepted it. And I use the same way because humour is a language, is a way to communicate with others. So, I use the same type of humour as them. And as a result, I got well included in male dominated environment. But as I was working in communication, in one of my job, my entire team was composed of women. And they didn't like my type of humour. And one of my subordinates came to me and said, can you stop making jokes? It's not funny at all. We don't like it. We find it quite offending. And that's when I came up with the concept of the research. It's like, oh my God, it never occurred to me that my sense of humour could actually offend others. I always, and I think like many people, I thought my sense of humour is part of myself and I can't change it. And if you don't laugh at my jokes, you have no sense of humour. That's it. You are not a funny person. 

Hannah Munro: 9:52 

Yeah, you've got no sense of humour. 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 9:54 

either. But actually, it's much more complex than that. Science has found four types of humour. So, two are negatives and two are positives. So, why negatives? Because For example, aggressive type of humour, the one I've mentioned before, is detrimental to others because you are going to hurt the person who is in front of you. The other is one which is very well known by British people, and it is self-deprecation, self-deprecating sense of humour. And why is it detrimental and negative? Because it's detrimental to yourself. you're actually putting yourself down in front of others. And the two positive ones are, one is called self-enhancing, which means you are using humour to show yourself under the best light. So, it's quite good for your statue as a leader. And another one is affiliative. And this is like the Holy Grail of humour because it's, you can adapt it to any type of relationship or situations. And this is the type of humour where everybody is laughing. You are not attacking anybody. You find like a common ground and it's the type of humour which is gathering people and making all of them laugh together. 

Hannah Munro: 11:16 

So, that's quite challenging in that you said there that everyone has their own sense of humour and their own natural talent for perhaps one type. So, how do you know which type of humour that you have as an individual? I'm glad you asked. Because 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 11:34 

actually... Everything starts with self-awareness. And if you are a leader, you've probably been through a lot of different tests and quizzes to understand what type of leader you are, what is your type of leadership. But you never did anything about your sense of humour. So, there are lots of research about it. But I actually made a tool. because I had this question a lot in my trainings. And so, I created a very short quiz where people are asked a few questions. I think it's 10 questions. And so, you understand what your sense of humour is because it starts with that. And I've also built and created a report which is helping people to understand better how they can use it in an organization and with their teams. And it's all what Leading with Humour is about. making humour a tool, a practical tool for leaders. And that's what I'm trying to do because I've been there. I've been in organization. I've been miserable at work in an environment where humour was used to put people down and not to connect with them. So, I know what it is like. And I know as well that it might feel like daunting to use humour. So, I've tried to make it very practical for leaders because I want to encourage them to use humour because the permission of levity, the permission mission of humour comes from the top. Only when you are a leader that you can set the example and use humour yourself in order to allow the people in your team to use it as well. 

Hannah Munro: 13:18 

Absolutely. And I think it's part of the culture, isn't it? So, you know, I think what we're saying here is that humour should be part of a culture and that it can help foster innovation and creativity if it's used in the right way. So, fantastic. 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 13:34 

Actually, some of the most brilliant and successful companies in the world have a culture based on humour, such as Southwest Airlines. which was one of the airlines which was the most successful. And it's actually in their corporate values, there is humour. And they make room in their meetings and in the way they lead. And the corporate culture is built around. 

Hannah Munro: 14:07 

humour. So, that's a real, and you mentioned a couple of things there about sort of different groups that you've managed to see humour and use humour differently. How do you approach like say a new team or a new group that you're working with? And how do you figure out how to use humour to help either bond them or to build a relationship with them? 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 14:28 

Well, it's very important to understand the other people. So, understand the audience. If you do a bit of public speaking, that's quite, you know, a basic, you need to understand who you have in front of you but it's even more relevant when you are talking about humour because what we tend to do is to project what make us laugh what we find funny onto others So, if you like, for example, if I like inappropriate jokes or very aggressive jokes or discriminatory sexist jokes, then I assume that everybody else is going to find it funny as well. But it's not the case. And that is consciousness, mindfulness. It's about understanding others and having the intention of making other laugh and not yourself. And for that, you need to understand who is in front of you. So, either you have a full audience of your colleagues, you are either in a big meeting or you are presenting in front of a department. And so, you have one thing in common with those people, the corporate culture. And so, that is something that you can use and abuse in order to make other people laugh. That's quite easy. There is always something within the value chain that you can make fun of. It could be like a client. Obviously, the client is not invited to the meeting. But a client, a situation, something that is not working. And it's also a way to, you can use humour to pass difficult message that will actually land better if you use a bit of humour and levity to pass the message. And you don't need to be a stand-up comedian. It can be an anecdote. It can be like a humorous comment. We are not here with the target of making everybody laugh. They are not donating money after the gig. That's not the point. The point is to make people feel good. about the meeting, about you. And there is an immediate connection with people when you are using humour. It's very strong in building this immediate report. That's why it's also very useful in sales because once you use humour with someone and the person is responding, then you have built a strong relationship, a deeper relationship that you would do if you're just talking normally with someone. 

Hannah Munro: 16:58 

And I guess because obviously a lot of our listeners work in finance, and that's quite a serious team, even within the organization. So, I think there's always a little bit of fear about using humour and how it will be seen by others within both your peers and also your superiors. So, tell us a little bit about the research around the relationships and how humour can help support it on both levels, both your subordinates, but also your superiors as well? 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 17:30 

Well, what I've done with the research I worked on with Cambridge is that I analysed What is the best type of humour to use in different situations, meaning with your hierarchy, with your colleagues and with your subordinates? Because for me, you can adapt this type of humour. That's requiring a lot of self-awareness, as I mentioned, and a bit of work at the beginning to understand who you are and who the person are and what is your intention. But after that, it becomes natural. I mean, I realized that since I started that research, my sense of humour has changed drastically. I mean, as I mentioned, I had a very aggressive sense of humour, which was hurting my team, the people around me. And I changed completely. I've redone the test. And now my sense of humour is half affiliative, half self-enhancing. 

Hannah Munro: 18:25 

That's a very well-designed. 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 18:26 

humour. Yeah, that's a perfect sense of humour. But I'm still very aggressive on stage. So, I just, you know, repurpose it. We tend to leave the person we are at the door of the office. And it's particularly true in very serious environments such as finance. But actually, who said that? who set the standard and who say that you absolutely need to be serious at work. And you will deliver less if you actually joke with your colleagues, if you actually make people smile around you, or if you use a little bit of humour with your clients. It's because people tend to be confused between a comedian and somebody using humour. I'm a comedian and I don't coach people on becoming a comedian. That's absolutely not what I do. I think there are much more successful comedians that are teaching comedians to become better comedians. That's not what I wanted to do. What I wanted is to make people understand that if they are humorous, if they want to connect on a deeper level with people, if they want to enhance their relationship, business and the personal one, they can be humorous. They can be funny. And it's actually all the research. There is no research at all that is saying that using Shumor is detrimental as long as you are using the right one. And I've seen a research saying that women shouldn't use humour because they are looking, they actually appear less, decreasing their stature as a leader if they use it. And actually, according to the research I've done, the only people who are judging women to be less of a leader if they are using humour, are other women. 

Hannah Munro: 20:15 

Really? That's interesting, isn't it? 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 20:18 

That's the result of the research. And that was the most surprising thing is that we are our worst enemy. Men, they use humour. They are much more at ease using humour in every kind of situation. So, they assume that women are doing the same. I actually had comments on the research saying, oh, but there is a different sense of humour. We are different. For that, men assume that we are using humour the same way as them. That's also why sometimes the jokes are inappropriate because they assume, as I like to say, that a woman is a man like any other. So, you can joke with a woman like you joke with a man. 

Hannah Munro: 20:55 

So, what's the difference? Isn't that interesting? And I guess that shows some of the differences between men and women in terms of how they both perceive humour and how they approach it as well. And we're talking about differences. Is there any difference between cultures? So, obviously you're originally from France. So, how did you find the shift working in London with the English sense of humour? Is there a noticeable difference? 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 21:21 

Actually, I'm currently conducting research about international humour because I got a lot of feedback from people telling me how can I use humour my team is in China and I'm based in US how can I use humour I have like a Greek an Italian a British and an Indian in my team so, I have a very multicultural team how can not offend anybody and use because As I mentioned, there are different types of humour. So, how do I know? And so, that's very interesting. It's a whole other topic on its own, because as you know, there are many different countries and cultures and there are many types of humour. Or rather, the four types of humour suit best different countries and cultures. So, again, it's very important to understand where you are and the same way that you are preparing for, let's say you are going to Japan for a meeting. You know that you have to prepare because culturally it can be a shock between Europe and Asia. So, you are going to prepare to not offend anybody. In the same way, you have to prepare the way you are going to use humour because it's very different according to the culture. I mean, in Asian culture, for example, it doesn't look good to laugh in public. Ah, that's interesting. So, if you are not aware of that, you are going to get into this meeting trying to make jokes and nobody is going to respond. Because that's something that you should keep for more informal meetings. 

Hannah Munro: 22:57 

Yes. So, Choosing your time and place. And again, it comes back to that story about understanding your audience, doesn't it? Exactly. Where they come from. So, for those listening, if they, you know, because this sounds fantastic and I think all of us would like to be seen as having a good sense of humour from our teams and our colleagues and, you know, and our superiors. But practically, how would you actually approach starting to incorporate humour? And what are the steps that our listeners can take away to sort of go, right, this is my basic guide, my guide for dummies on using humour in the workplace? 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 23:38 

Well, as I mentioned, it's first understanding your type of humour and trying to understand the other types of humour. So, if you're in a small team, I would start with that. Or even better, lots of people don't have a lot of confidence, especially in using humour. And so, I've coached a few people who are like, I'm quite an introvert. I don't know how to use humour. And so, I always tell people to start in a safe circle. So, you start to use it with your friends, with your family, with people with low stake, lower stake. So, you try first with the people that can give you feedback on if you're a joke slant or not. Then you start outside. I try to make people laugh around me, even people I don't know. So, you are at the grocery store, try to make laugh the cashier. So, that's no stake, you know, no pressure. And you build slowly confidence. And then you try at the workplace because you know people and it's like higher stakes. So, you need to be completely confident. You need to have, you know, studied what would land. For example, I interview an engineer, so, a female engineer for our special company, and she's leading a team of male engineers. And she told me that she actually purposely researched what he said, geek humour, in order to make her team laugh. So, she has watched Big Bang Theory. Because apparently the TV show is all about geek humour. And she's looking on the internet for jokes, geek jokes. And she's sending it to our team. So, no need to perform. She's just sending it. And after, when we could meet people at the coffee machine, she's like, hey, did you get the jokes I just sent you? What do you think? And so, she's actually using it to spark the conversation. Do you. 

Hannah Munro: 25:40 

know what? That's really interesting. So, we have a very bad addiction to GIFs in our organisation. So, that is, I think the team would agree with me in that I think we communicate as much in GIFs as we do in words, sometimes on Teams and other channels. And it's interesting that she was using humour without actually having to make a joke herself, that she put forward something humorous to try and make a connection there. So, that's really interesting. Are there any other ways that people can use it without necessarily putting themselves in that spot of making a joke. 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 26:15 

What you said is really relevant because one of my clients still is working in tech and most of the communication is through the Slack channel. And she was like, I don't feel confident. So, I was like, start with a GIF, as you mentioned. And she's quite skilled at making them. So, she's making a gift for the company. So, about people, about situation. And she became quite known as the humorous person on the Slack. And that gave her confidence to actually try jokes, try saying jokes rather than just writing it. You can add humour in your emails. You know, you can write, you know, you can write something humorous, a little comment at the end of an email. You can incorporate it into the brand of the company, you know, slightly through marketing. So, there are many, many ways, subtle ways, without having to deliver a performance. People are mistaking. You don't have to be a stand-up comedian. Leave that to us. 

Hannah Munro: 27:21 

That's a skill in itself, to be fair. You know, you really did jump in the deep end with going straight into stand-up comedy, Yeah, I like a good challenge. Oh, brilliant. So, obviously, we're getting close to, this has been fascinating to us. I think we can talk humour and perhaps share some very bad jokes for hours on this podcast. We could talk about it all day. I'm not sure it would be appropriate, to be fair, to some of our audience. But if, you know, so, we talked about starting small, so, small sort of and low risk, working with your family and friends and testing it out. But you made a really interesting point when you said knowing your audience and knowing their sense of humour. How do you gauge somebody else's sense of humour? You know, because you can't exactly, well, you could, I guess, send them a link to your quiz and ask them to fill it out. But how do you judge it from somebody else's perspective? 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 28:17 

Well, yeah, actually you could do it because that's what you do with like MBTI and all those tests you send to understand how your team works. So, you could do that. Or you could actually try with different jokes and see what resonates the best with your team. or each person differently because your team as a whole should build their own sense of humour. So, they are like, if you use value chain and situation, then you are building a team sense of humour Things that are going to resonate with everybody. And that's what you should aim for. But first, you need to one-to-one to understand their sense of humour. And that's going to be according to their gender and according to their culture as well. So, you would know the limits, the boundary to not cross when you are talking to those people. And then you would understand what type of humour they are resonating with. So, there is one type of humour that you are going to be able to use when you are one to one with that person. And then you are going to aim to build like a group sense of humour in order to foster diversity and inclusion within your team or within your organization. So, it depends if you are like three people, it's easier if you are like 500. So, that's why a situation situational humour and the humour you know that you can find in situation uh can be the go-to type of humour for example one of my clients uh has had a an online zoom meeting where he tried to incorporate humour so, we worked on how to use to use humour in meetings in zoom meetings because uh I had lots of feedback from clients that people are disengaged now they are they have like what I call like a zoom out you know zoom burnout so, they don't even put the camera on and they don't participate. So, he wanted to introduce a bit of humour. And so, he found a way very interesting. And it's not even coming from him. They were making, in a way, light fun of one of the team members. So, he had a team of 50 people. One of the team members is always wearing the same jacket. whatever the weather, and a tweed jacket. So, very gentleman farmer. And they all decided one day, I think it was over Christmas, to all wear the same jacket. The same tweed jacket. Yeah, exactly. Everybody, women, men, they were all wearing a tweed jacket. And the person arrived late to the Zoom meeting. So, he was like going through all his paper. And suddenly he looked up and saw everybody wearing the same jacket. And they were all proofing, you know, like laughing in anticipation. And then everybody exploded laughing. You know, they were like crying. And it became a recurrent joke. joke as well so, now every meeting they can laugh about that and actually that's when the meeting was the most efficient ever, He told me that in his team, people were not really collaborating, and they were always referring to him when there was a problem. They were not solving it by themselves. And the meetings were very long, like an hour, an hour and a half, and not very productive. From that moment, from the moment they did this joke, now all the meetings are like 30 minutes sharp, and all the problems are solved within those 30 minutes. 

Hannah Munro: 31:49 

Wow. 

Unknown: 31:50 

Yeah. 

Hannah Munro: 31:50 

So, it increases, so, it comes back to the point that you made about it increases, you know, the ability to think innovatively to solve problems and obviously productivity. Because there is a piece, isn't there, when you're engaged, when you're motivated, when you're happy, you're in such a better place as an individual and as a team as well. So, yeah. And I guess this is the challenge, isn't it, is that all of us want to use more humour and to be able to sit and, you know, and to have great relationships. relationships, but it's that first step, isn't it? That first sort of point of actually getting up the guts, like how you felt when you first stepped onto that stage and taking that big step. So, are there any lasting thoughts or, you know, any suggestions for any of our listeners that you want them to take away and have a think about or any top tips that you can share? 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 32:42 

Well, as I mentioned, it's like understanding your audience first and not being afraid of making fun of themselves. So, I said I mentioned that self-defeating humour is detrimental, but it depends on your stature. If actually you are a leader, meaning that you are leading a team, so, you have people under you, then you can use it because that is reducing the social distance. 

Hannah Munro: 33:12 

Nice. 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 33:13 

That is decreasing your stature as a leader in a way that people feel comfortable saying mistakes and talking to you rather than being intimidated by your stature as a leader. 

Hannah Munro: 33:23 

Wow. And I can see a whole different conversation about the types of humour to use with different individuals there. And I'm genuinely gutted. I really think we could talk about this all day. So, very, very quickly, because I think it's a really important point there that you mentioned that. So, if you're a leader, you can use self-deprecating to reduce social distance. If you're talking to a superior, what kind of humour is okay to use? 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 33:49 

Well, you would rather prefer to have a positive one. So, either affiliative or self- enhancing if you can, because it's actually you want to shine. That's your moment to shine when you are with your hierarchy. You want to be, you know, in the best light ever. And so, you should use that type of humour in order to raise your statue as a leader. 

Hannah Munro: 34:08 

Fantastic. And I can see a lot of people going online now and googling self-enhancing jokes as part of this. Well, thank you so, much, Vanessa. This has been genuinely fascinating. And if our listeners want to learn more about your research, about your work, or maybe even to do your quiz, what is the best way for them to find out more or to learn more? 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 34:30 

So, it's the website Leading with Humour. So, Humour, European way with a U. Leadingwithhumour.com. And then they can find the quiz, which is free and with the report. I do coach as well and not only on Humour, but I try to incorporate it to lead better in a more positive way. I do as well events. where actually in an hour, I give like a mini conference to people so, they can learn about it. And I do on networking or on how to use humour in meetings, in Zoom meetings. So, that could be interesting for people. Also deliver keynotes and trainings within corporations. So, there are many ways of consuming the content and understanding how to be a better leader. I write articles as well. And so, yeah, just contact me. I would be happy to answer a question and do the quiz and let's start a human revolution in organizations. 

Hannah Munro: 35:28 

Absolutely. And so, for those listening, I will put the links to Vanessa's profile and the website and some of the content that she mentioned. And thank you so, much, Vanessa. This is absolutely fascinating. And I can, yeah, I'm definitely going to take away a few tips to use with my crew as well. So, thank you. 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 35:49 

Thank you. And let me know how it goes. I'm always looking for feedback on how it works. Absolutely. It has worked. 

Hannah Munro: 35:58 

Definitely. And yeah, my crew will be listening and judging my jokes from now on. They'll be giving me lectures, I'm sure. So, brilliant. Well, thank you so, much. And yeah, to all of our listeners, thank you again for listening. And please do check out the show notes with all those links, as I mentioned. 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 36:15 

Thank you. Thank you very much for the invitation. 

22. Use Humour to Your Advantage as a Finance Leader with Dr. Vanessa Marcie

Hannah Munro: 0:48 

Hello and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. My name is Hannah Munro, your host, and with me today is Dr. Vanessa Marcy. So, Dr. Marcy is a humour and leadership expert. She's an international speaker, and she is all about using humour to drive change. She's given over 100 presentations to global audiences of more than 30 countries. She's also worked with a number of large organizations in both private and public sectors. So, it's ones you will know, such as LinkedIn, BPI France, the UK Department of International Trade, and she's also a guest lecturer for some top business schools, including Cambridge, HEC Paris, Oxford University, and Toulouse Business School. So, welcome onto the podcast, Vanessa. It's fantastic to have you with us. 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 1:36 

Hello. Thank you very much for your invitation. I'm thrilled to be here today. So, tell us a little bit about yourself. 

Hannah Munro: 1:43 

How did you end up studying humour and leadership? 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 1:46 

I know that's a very, very peculiar subject area of research. But it all started for me when I actually studied stand-up comedy. So, I was very afraid of public speaking when I was younger, when I started my career. And when I was living and working in London, I discovered stand-up comedy. And I thought, oh, that could be an interesting way to beat the fear. That's a very challenging one. Most people would die rather than going on stage. It's like, hey, let's do this. I can do it. So, I had a two-day workshop and went straight to stage. And that was the most, I mean, I was so, scared. That was the scariest thing. moment of my life I thought I was going to have a stroke before getting on stage but the moment I delivered my routine and when the first person left I felt such a surge of endorphin and happy feeling and I was so, excited I couldn't sleep that night I was like oh my god this is the best feeling in the world and I have never looked back since so, I've been a stand-up comedian for now like something like five years. And it's been, it's been cathartic. It's been healing. It's been wonderful to give the gift of laughter to other people. And so, when I was doing my, I studied, I went back to school a few years ago and I went to Cambridge to study for an EMBA. And the last project was a research project and academic research. And I did my PhD on organizational communication. And I thought, should I do something about my career? And at the time, I was working in marketing, communication, and business development in the public sector. I thought maybe I could do something that would help my career or rather I would do something that I'm passionate about. And I always wanted to understand how we could incorporate more humour into organization. So, actually, we would like to go to work because sometimes it both sucks. 

Hannah Munro: 4:14 

I love that concept of bringing humour into the workplace because there's always that fear, isn't it? Because everyone has a different sense of humour. So, talk to us about some of the benefits of bringing humour into leadership and into the workplace. What have you seen in your studies? 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 4:34 

Oh my God, there are so, many benefits. Actually, all my conferences and training are backed by science. I looked at what other academics have done and there are many benefits such as fostering group cohesiveness or team building and collaboration spirit within your team, which is enhancing collaboration and performance. You also have; it can unleash creativity. And if you work in innovation, I mean, having an innovative team and employees is quite required. It can enhance collaboration, it can enhance communication, So, every message, whatever is it, internal message or with clients, so, it helps for sales as well. So, it's really a useful tool. And it's also an underestimated asset. A lot of people are not using consciously humour or are using the wrong type of humour, which is actually causing a toxic culture in the company. Humour is also helping to build a positive organisational structure. Reducing social distance between people. So, we are talking about social distancing at the moment, but actually it can reduce the distance between hierarchy and subordinates. But it's also a double-edged sword. because it can actually be used to overpower other people. And that's when the negative humour comes in. And lots of people don't see the difference. And I believe that people don't consciously use the wrong type of humour that can cause harm to others. But still, because they are not self-aware, and they are not aware of the benefits and the negatives of humour, they use it, and they hurt other people. And that's with this, the start of toxic culture. 

Hannah Munro: 6:37 

So, tell us, you mentioned a couple of times there, the types, different types of humour. Talk us through what different types that people use in both workplace and personal lives as well. 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 6:48 

So, we often talk about irony and sarcasm, but actually those are subtypes of humour. And those are like at least 20 different types of humour. I'm also a comedian, a stand-up comedian. So, often when I deliver conferences or when I do coach, people are like, oh, can you do a stand-up comedian. I'm like, no, I can't. And I'm like, why? Because I'm a blue comedian. I use a lot of inappropriate jokes. So, this is like a false page on me. So, you know, you deliver in an IRO special or defence company and they're like, yeah. And I'm like, no, I'm not going to talk to you about my last orgasm. 

Hannah Munro: 7:26 

That's not appropriate. Yeah, not quite what you were brought in to help with, to be. 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 7:31 

fair. 

Unknown: 7:33 

Yeah. 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 7:33 

Because you have different type of humour, but mainly what science has found is that there are four main types of humour. So, we are all composed by those types of humour, but some are more dominant than others. So, it's part of our personality. And those types of humour are built through our background and the people we hang out with and the work environment as well. For example, I don't remember my type of humour when I was younger, but when I started my career, it was in male-dominated industries. I started my career as a journalist, and I was the only woman in the newsroom. Then after I worked in the oil and gas and in a refinery it was like we were 20 women for uh out of 400 people and I worked in innovation in tech it's so, many in finance many uh you know male dominated industries so, my sense of humour was a way to adapt and to be included what that means is that If a man is using an aggressive type of humour, or in France we use a lot of sexual jokes, I would use the same type of humour. And I didn't even think about it. It just, you know, became natural. I accepted it. And I use the same way because humour is a language, is a way to communicate with others. So, I use the same type of humour as them. And as a result, I got well included in male dominated environment. But as I was working in communication, in one of my job, my entire team was composed of women. And they didn't like my type of humour. And one of my subordinates came to me and said, can you stop making jokes? It's not funny at all. We don't like it. We find it quite offending. And that's when I came up with the concept of the research. It's like, oh my God, it never occurred to me that my sense of humour could actually offend others. I always, and I think like many people, I thought my sense of humour is part of myself and I can't change it. And if you don't laugh at my jokes, you have no sense of humour. That's it. You are not a funny person. 

Hannah Munro: 9:52 

Yeah, you've got no sense of humour. 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 9:54 

either. But actually, it's much more complex than that. Science has found four types of humour. So, two are negatives and two are positives. So, why negatives? Because For example, aggressive type of humour, the one I've mentioned before, is detrimental to others because you are going to hurt the person who is in front of you. The other is one which is very well known by British people, and it is self-deprecation, self-deprecating sense of humour. And why is it detrimental and negative? Because it's detrimental to yourself. you're actually putting yourself down in front of others. And the two positive ones are, one is called self-enhancing, which means you are using humour to show yourself under the best light. So, it's quite good for your statue as a leader. And another one is affiliative. And this is like the Holy Grail of humour because it's, you can adapt it to any type of relationship or situations. And this is the type of humour where everybody is laughing. You are not attacking anybody. You find like a common ground and it's the type of humour which is gathering people and making all of them laugh together. 

Hannah Munro: 11:16 

So, that's quite challenging in that you said there that everyone has their own sense of humour and their own natural talent for perhaps one type. So, how do you know which type of humour that you have as an individual? I'm glad you asked. Because 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 11:34 

actually... Everything starts with self-awareness. And if you are a leader, you've probably been through a lot of different tests and quizzes to understand what type of leader you are, what is your type of leadership. But you never did anything about your sense of humour. So, there are lots of research about it. But I actually made a tool. because I had this question a lot in my trainings. And so, I created a very short quiz where people are asked a few questions. I think it's 10 questions. And so, you understand what your sense of humour is because it starts with that. And I've also built and created a report which is helping people to understand better how they can use it in an organization and with their teams. And it's all what Leading with Humour is about. making humour a tool, a practical tool for leaders. And that's what I'm trying to do because I've been there. I've been in organization. I've been miserable at work in an environment where humour was used to put people down and not to connect with them. So, I know what it is like. And I know as well that it might feel like daunting to use humour. So, I've tried to make it very practical for leaders because I want to encourage them to use humour because the permission of levity, the permission mission of humour comes from the top. Only when you are a leader that you can set the example and use humour yourself in order to allow the people in your team to use it as well. 

Hannah Munro: 13:18 

Absolutely. And I think it's part of the culture, isn't it? So, you know, I think what we're saying here is that humour should be part of a culture and that it can help foster innovation and creativity if it's used in the right way. So, fantastic. 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 13:34 

Actually, some of the most brilliant and successful companies in the world have a culture based on humour, such as Southwest Airlines. which was one of the airlines which was the most successful. And it's actually in their corporate values, there is humour. And they make room in their meetings and in the way they lead. And the corporate culture is built around. 

Hannah Munro: 14:07 

humour. So, that's a real, and you mentioned a couple of things there about sort of different groups that you've managed to see humour and use humour differently. How do you approach like say a new team or a new group that you're working with? And how do you figure out how to use humour to help either bond them or to build a relationship with them? 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 14:28 

Well, it's very important to understand the other people. So, understand the audience. If you do a bit of public speaking, that's quite, you know, a basic, you need to understand who you have in front of you but it's even more relevant when you are talking about humour because what we tend to do is to project what make us laugh what we find funny onto others So, if you like, for example, if I like inappropriate jokes or very aggressive jokes or discriminatory sexist jokes, then I assume that everybody else is going to find it funny as well. But it's not the case. And that is consciousness, mindfulness. It's about understanding others and having the intention of making other laugh and not yourself. And for that, you need to understand who is in front of you. So, either you have a full audience of your colleagues, you are either in a big meeting or you are presenting in front of a department. And so, you have one thing in common with those people, the corporate culture. And so, that is something that you can use and abuse in order to make other people laugh. That's quite easy. There is always something within the value chain that you can make fun of. It could be like a client. Obviously, the client is not invited to the meeting. But a client, a situation, something that is not working. And it's also a way to, you can use humour to pass difficult message that will actually land better if you use a bit of humour and levity to pass the message. And you don't need to be a stand-up comedian. It can be an anecdote. It can be like a humorous comment. We are not here with the target of making everybody laugh. They are not donating money after the gig. That's not the point. The point is to make people feel good. about the meeting, about you. And there is an immediate connection with people when you are using humour. It's very strong in building this immediate report. That's why it's also very useful in sales because once you use humour with someone and the person is responding, then you have built a strong relationship, a deeper relationship that you would do if you're just talking normally with someone. 

Hannah Munro: 16:58 

And I guess because obviously a lot of our listeners work in finance, and that's quite a serious team, even within the organization. So, I think there's always a little bit of fear about using humour and how it will be seen by others within both your peers and also your superiors. So, tell us a little bit about the research around the relationships and how humour can help support it on both levels, both your subordinates, but also your superiors as well? 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 17:30 

Well, what I've done with the research I worked on with Cambridge is that I analysed What is the best type of humour to use in different situations, meaning with your hierarchy, with your colleagues and with your subordinates? Because for me, you can adapt this type of humour. That's requiring a lot of self-awareness, as I mentioned, and a bit of work at the beginning to understand who you are and who the person are and what is your intention. But after that, it becomes natural. I mean, I realized that since I started that research, my sense of humour has changed drastically. I mean, as I mentioned, I had a very aggressive sense of humour, which was hurting my team, the people around me. And I changed completely. I've redone the test. And now my sense of humour is half affiliative, half self-enhancing. 

Hannah Munro: 18:25 

That's a very well-designed. 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 18:26 

humour. Yeah, that's a perfect sense of humour. But I'm still very aggressive on stage. So, I just, you know, repurpose it. We tend to leave the person we are at the door of the office. And it's particularly true in very serious environments such as finance. But actually, who said that? who set the standard and who say that you absolutely need to be serious at work. And you will deliver less if you actually joke with your colleagues, if you actually make people smile around you, or if you use a little bit of humour with your clients. It's because people tend to be confused between a comedian and somebody using humour. I'm a comedian and I don't coach people on becoming a comedian. That's absolutely not what I do. I think there are much more successful comedians that are teaching comedians to become better comedians. That's not what I wanted to do. What I wanted is to make people understand that if they are humorous, if they want to connect on a deeper level with people, if they want to enhance their relationship, business and the personal one, they can be humorous. They can be funny. And it's actually all the research. There is no research at all that is saying that using Shumor is detrimental as long as you are using the right one. And I've seen a research saying that women shouldn't use humour because they are looking, they actually appear less, decreasing their stature as a leader if they use it. And actually, according to the research I've done, the only people who are judging women to be less of a leader if they are using humour, are other women. 

Hannah Munro: 20:15 

Really? That's interesting, isn't it? 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 20:18 

That's the result of the research. And that was the most surprising thing is that we are our worst enemy. Men, they use humour. They are much more at ease using humour in every kind of situation. So, they assume that women are doing the same. I actually had comments on the research saying, oh, but there is a different sense of humour. We are different. For that, men assume that we are using humour the same way as them. That's also why sometimes the jokes are inappropriate because they assume, as I like to say, that a woman is a man like any other. So, you can joke with a woman like you joke with a man. 

Hannah Munro: 20:55 

So, what's the difference? Isn't that interesting? And I guess that shows some of the differences between men and women in terms of how they both perceive humour and how they approach it as well. And we're talking about differences. Is there any difference between cultures? So, obviously you're originally from France. So, how did you find the shift working in London with the English sense of humour? Is there a noticeable difference? 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 21:21 

Actually, I'm currently conducting research about international humour because I got a lot of feedback from people telling me how can I use humour my team is in China and I'm based in US how can I use humour I have like a Greek an Italian a British and an Indian in my team so, I have a very multicultural team how can not offend anybody and use because As I mentioned, there are different types of humour. So, how do I know? And so, that's very interesting. It's a whole other topic on its own, because as you know, there are many different countries and cultures and there are many types of humour. Or rather, the four types of humour suit best different countries and cultures. So, again, it's very important to understand where you are and the same way that you are preparing for, let's say you are going to Japan for a meeting. You know that you have to prepare because culturally it can be a shock between Europe and Asia. So, you are going to prepare to not offend anybody. In the same way, you have to prepare the way you are going to use humour because it's very different according to the culture. I mean, in Asian culture, for example, it doesn't look good to laugh in public. Ah, that's interesting. So, if you are not aware of that, you are going to get into this meeting trying to make jokes and nobody is going to respond. Because that's something that you should keep for more informal meetings. 

Hannah Munro: 22:57 

Yes. So, Choosing your time and place. And again, it comes back to that story about understanding your audience, doesn't it? Exactly. Where they come from. So, for those listening, if they, you know, because this sounds fantastic and I think all of us would like to be seen as having a good sense of humour from our teams and our colleagues and, you know, and our superiors. But practically, how would you actually approach starting to incorporate humour? And what are the steps that our listeners can take away to sort of go, right, this is my basic guide, my guide for dummies on using humour in the workplace? 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 23:38 

Well, as I mentioned, it's first understanding your type of humour and trying to understand the other types of humour. So, if you're in a small team, I would start with that. Or even better, lots of people don't have a lot of confidence, especially in using humour. And so, I've coached a few people who are like, I'm quite an introvert. I don't know how to use humour. And so, I always tell people to start in a safe circle. So, you start to use it with your friends, with your family, with people with low stake, lower stake. So, you try first with the people that can give you feedback on if you're a joke slant or not. Then you start outside. I try to make people laugh around me, even people I don't know. So, you are at the grocery store, try to make laugh the cashier. So, that's no stake, you know, no pressure. And you build slowly confidence. And then you try at the workplace because you know people and it's like higher stakes. So, you need to be completely confident. You need to have, you know, studied what would land. For example, I interview an engineer, so, a female engineer for our special company, and she's leading a team of male engineers. And she told me that she actually purposely researched what he said, geek humour, in order to make her team laugh. So, she has watched Big Bang Theory. Because apparently the TV show is all about geek humour. And she's looking on the internet for jokes, geek jokes. And she's sending it to our team. So, no need to perform. She's just sending it. And after, when we could meet people at the coffee machine, she's like, hey, did you get the jokes I just sent you? What do you think? And so, she's actually using it to spark the conversation. Do you. 

Hannah Munro: 25:40 

know what? That's really interesting. So, we have a very bad addiction to GIFs in our organisation. So, that is, I think the team would agree with me in that I think we communicate as much in GIFs as we do in words, sometimes on Teams and other channels. And it's interesting that she was using humour without actually having to make a joke herself, that she put forward something humorous to try and make a connection there. So, that's really interesting. Are there any other ways that people can use it without necessarily putting themselves in that spot of making a joke. 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 26:15 

What you said is really relevant because one of my clients still is working in tech and most of the communication is through the Slack channel. And she was like, I don't feel confident. So, I was like, start with a GIF, as you mentioned. And she's quite skilled at making them. So, she's making a gift for the company. So, about people, about situation. And she became quite known as the humorous person on the Slack. And that gave her confidence to actually try jokes, try saying jokes rather than just writing it. You can add humour in your emails. You know, you can write, you know, you can write something humorous, a little comment at the end of an email. You can incorporate it into the brand of the company, you know, slightly through marketing. So, there are many, many ways, subtle ways, without having to deliver a performance. People are mistaking. You don't have to be a stand-up comedian. Leave that to us. 

Hannah Munro: 27:21 

That's a skill in itself, to be fair. You know, you really did jump in the deep end with going straight into stand-up comedy, Yeah, I like a good challenge. Oh, brilliant. So, obviously, we're getting close to, this has been fascinating to us. I think we can talk humour and perhaps share some very bad jokes for hours on this podcast. We could talk about it all day. I'm not sure it would be appropriate, to be fair, to some of our audience. But if, you know, so, we talked about starting small, so, small sort of and low risk, working with your family and friends and testing it out. But you made a really interesting point when you said knowing your audience and knowing their sense of humour. How do you gauge somebody else's sense of humour? You know, because you can't exactly, well, you could, I guess, send them a link to your quiz and ask them to fill it out. But how do you judge it from somebody else's perspective? 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 28:17 

Well, yeah, actually you could do it because that's what you do with like MBTI and all those tests you send to understand how your team works. So, you could do that. Or you could actually try with different jokes and see what resonates the best with your team. or each person differently because your team as a whole should build their own sense of humour. So, they are like, if you use value chain and situation, then you are building a team sense of humour Things that are going to resonate with everybody. And that's what you should aim for. But first, you need to one-to-one to understand their sense of humour. And that's going to be according to their gender and according to their culture as well. So, you would know the limits, the boundary to not cross when you are talking to those people. And then you would understand what type of humour they are resonating with. So, there is one type of humour that you are going to be able to use when you are one to one with that person. And then you are going to aim to build like a group sense of humour in order to foster diversity and inclusion within your team or within your organization. So, it depends if you are like three people, it's easier if you are like 500. So, that's why a situation situational humour and the humour you know that you can find in situation uh can be the go-to type of humour for example one of my clients uh has had a an online zoom meeting where he tried to incorporate humour so, we worked on how to use to use humour in meetings in zoom meetings because uh I had lots of feedback from clients that people are disengaged now they are they have like what I call like a zoom out you know zoom burnout so, they don't even put the camera on and they don't participate. So, he wanted to introduce a bit of humour. And so, he found a way very interesting. And it's not even coming from him. They were making, in a way, light fun of one of the team members. So, he had a team of 50 people. One of the team members is always wearing the same jacket. whatever the weather, and a tweed jacket. So, very gentleman farmer. And they all decided one day, I think it was over Christmas, to all wear the same jacket. The same tweed jacket. Yeah, exactly. Everybody, women, men, they were all wearing a tweed jacket. And the person arrived late to the Zoom meeting. So, he was like going through all his paper. And suddenly he looked up and saw everybody wearing the same jacket. And they were all proofing, you know, like laughing in anticipation. And then everybody exploded laughing. You know, they were like crying. And it became a recurrent joke. joke as well so, now every meeting they can laugh about that and actually that's when the meeting was the most efficient ever, He told me that in his team, people were not really collaborating, and they were always referring to him when there was a problem. They were not solving it by themselves. And the meetings were very long, like an hour, an hour and a half, and not very productive. From that moment, from the moment they did this joke, now all the meetings are like 30 minutes sharp, and all the problems are solved within those 30 minutes. 

Hannah Munro: 31:49 

Wow. 

Unknown: 31:50 

Yeah. 

Hannah Munro: 31:50 

So, it increases, so, it comes back to the point that you made about it increases, you know, the ability to think innovatively to solve problems and obviously productivity. Because there is a piece, isn't there, when you're engaged, when you're motivated, when you're happy, you're in such a better place as an individual and as a team as well. So, yeah. And I guess this is the challenge, isn't it, is that all of us want to use more humour and to be able to sit and, you know, and to have great relationships. relationships, but it's that first step, isn't it? That first sort of point of actually getting up the guts, like how you felt when you first stepped onto that stage and taking that big step. So, are there any lasting thoughts or, you know, any suggestions for any of our listeners that you want them to take away and have a think about or any top tips that you can share? 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 32:42 

Well, as I mentioned, it's like understanding your audience first and not being afraid of making fun of themselves. So, I said I mentioned that self-defeating humour is detrimental, but it depends on your stature. If actually you are a leader, meaning that you are leading a team, so, you have people under you, then you can use it because that is reducing the social distance. 

Hannah Munro: 33:12 

Nice. 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 33:13 

That is decreasing your stature as a leader in a way that people feel comfortable saying mistakes and talking to you rather than being intimidated by your stature as a leader. 

Hannah Munro: 33:23 

Wow. And I can see a whole different conversation about the types of humour to use with different individuals there. And I'm genuinely gutted. I really think we could talk about this all day. So, very, very quickly, because I think it's a really important point there that you mentioned that. So, if you're a leader, you can use self-deprecating to reduce social distance. If you're talking to a superior, what kind of humour is okay to use? 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 33:49 

Well, you would rather prefer to have a positive one. So, either affiliative or self- enhancing if you can, because it's actually you want to shine. That's your moment to shine when you are with your hierarchy. You want to be, you know, in the best light ever. And so, you should use that type of humour in order to raise your statue as a leader. 

Hannah Munro: 34:08 

Fantastic. And I can see a lot of people going online now and googling self-enhancing jokes as part of this. Well, thank you so, much, Vanessa. This has been genuinely fascinating. And if our listeners want to learn more about your research, about your work, or maybe even to do your quiz, what is the best way for them to find out more or to learn more? 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 34:30 

So, it's the website Leading with Humour. So, Humour, European way with a U. Leadingwithhumour.com. And then they can find the quiz, which is free and with the report. I do coach as well and not only on Humour, but I try to incorporate it to lead better in a more positive way. I do as well events. where actually in an hour, I give like a mini conference to people so, they can learn about it. And I do on networking or on how to use humour in meetings, in Zoom meetings. So, that could be interesting for people. Also deliver keynotes and trainings within corporations. So, there are many ways of consuming the content and understanding how to be a better leader. I write articles as well. And so, yeah, just contact me. I would be happy to answer a question and do the quiz and let's start a human revolution in organizations. 

Hannah Munro: 35:28 

Absolutely. And so, for those listening, I will put the links to Vanessa's profile and the website and some of the content that she mentioned. And thank you so, much, Vanessa. This is absolutely fascinating. And I can, yeah, I'm definitely going to take away a few tips to use with my crew as well. So, thank you. 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 35:49 

Thank you. And let me know how it goes. I'm always looking for feedback on how it works. Absolutely. It has worked. 

Hannah Munro: 35:58 

Definitely. And yeah, my crew will be listening and judging my jokes from now on. They'll be giving me lectures, I'm sure. So, brilliant. Well, thank you so, much. And yeah, to all of our listeners, thank you again for listening. And please do check out the show notes with all those links, as I mentioned. 

Dr. Vanessa Marcie: 36:15 

Thank you. Thank you very much for the invitation.