35. FC to Female CFO: Talking about shifting into CFO role for the first time - with Niki Heim

35. FC to Female CFO: Talking about shifting into CFO role for the first time - with Niki Heim

Hannah Munro: 0:49 

So, hello everybody and welcome to this episode of CFO. My name is Hannah Munro. So, firstly, I want to say a massive thank you. I've had some great messages and comments this week on the podcast and thank you to all of those that have liked and shared. And if you do, please tag me in. I love to hear what people think about the episodes and if you have any ideas or thoughts on topics or guests, please keep sharing them. I've had some fantastic one through from our listeners. So, thank you again. And for those of you that are first-time subscribers please do remember to subscribe www.itassolutions.co.uk and go to the CFO 4.0 page. So, exciting one today so, with me I have Nikki Heim, and we are going to talk all things progression and particularly around women in executive and finance focused roles. So, welcome Nikki it's brilliant to have you on the show. Thanks so, much Anna. And thank you for joining us from all the way from the US. It's brilliant to have you here. So, tell us a little bit about yourself. Tell us about your journey. How did you end up in your current role? 

Niki Heim: 1:55 

Yeah. First, thanks for having me on. My journey is... It's kind of a long story. I'll try to keep it short. But I feel like my journey is shaped differently than what I believe to be the more traditional path. I really took advantage early in my career, my early 20s, to work really hard, but also live and travel to different areas across the country, specifically the West Coast. You know, when I first began working, I was in the Albany office for UHY Advisors, a large international accounting firm in public accounting where I was serving a wide range of clients and industries. It was after two years of doing that that I really made the decision to pack a bag, ship my car and move from New York to Anchorage, Alaska, where I continued in public accounting, but a much, much smaller firm. And I was specializing in accounting and tax planning services for entrepreneurs, businesses, and their owners. It was super interesting work at the same time I received my CPA. And I decided that it was time for me to try something different outside of public accounting. I really wanted to stay still within my comfort zone. So, I tried internal audit at one of the largest community banks called Umpqua Bank in Portland, Oregon. And pretty quickly after starting as an internal auditor, I was tapped to develop an internal risk assessment. And I worked with various executives across the bank to identify key risks, put mitigating actions in place, really worked I really enjoyed that in the beginning, but very quickly, once the development of that was set up and it was more about auditing the policy and process around it, I wanted to get back to the numbers and the true accounting. Um, and I had moved relocated down to the Bay area in San Francisco. Um, I was at the time I was actually training for a marathon and every day I would go out running and I would pass this group of women who were working out no matter if it was the morning, afternoon, night, and I thought it was a gym. And I was like, wow, I got to, I got to join that gym. And I soon realized it was the headquarters for title line sports, which I'm not sure if you're familiar, but it's a women's sports for a company, largely catalogue based. Um, I looked them up online. They had an open position in the accounting team, and I just said, I have to work there. So, I lived two blocks away. It was a dream job. I absolutely loved it. I advanced from the accounting manager position up to the controller before I actually moved back to the East Coast in Connecticut to take the controller job at Logic Source. I can't believe it's almost been seven years. And my journey, even at Logic Source has been really interesting because I, as I mentioned, I was, I was hired to be the controller, but as I was driving cross country from California to Connecticut, the CEO, David Panino called me and he said, Hey, so, I know I haven't met you. But when you start the CFO, he's going to be moving on to do something different. He was one of the founders. And, you know, I, I almost turned around and went back to California because I'm like, this is not going to be good. I I'm not prepared to step into a position where there's no mentor or guide above me. Um, but I'm so, glad that I, I didn't because, um, you know, I was trusted at logic source with so, many opportunities, um, Working alongside with incredibly smart, talented, driven people, they continued to push me and I was able to move my way and advance through the organization from controller to where I am now, which is CFO and CAO. So, I know it's a long story, but I feel like it's pretty unique. And so, without those pieces, you kind of miss some of the points that got me from where I was to where I am today. 

Hannah Munro: 5:55 

Do you know what's really interesting? The last podcast that we did last week was actually on that step up from FC to CFO and that transition. And I'm going to take this as an opportunity to ask how you found it. If you were going to speak to somebody else doing that transition, what would you say to them? 

Niki Heim: 6:13 

Yeah, I think my experience moving up in the same organization is probably much easier than doing it going from one company to the next, right? Because what my experience has taught me is that no matter what position you're in, if you want to advance, you have to gain experiences outside of your current role. So, I almost felt like I was doing some of the CFO role because there wasn't one on day one, right? But I obviously wasn't qualified to do 100% of it back then. So, I had to tap into the resources that were made available to me, whether it was other executives, a contractor at 1099, or some of the board members or friends of the firm that I was able to call and connect, ask questions with. So, I found it to be not as difficult and overwhelming as it might appear to be. But again, I think that's my unique experience because I was able to grow into the role and not necessarily have to just turn on the switch all at once. 

Hannah Munro: 7:14 

And did they actually bring someone in like as a temporary CFO, or did you literally come in as that FC role? And then when you were ready, they gave you that CFO role? 

Niki Heim: 7:25 

There was a temp that came in for several months. You know, I started in July. The temp was gone by the first of the following year. I think... It was a whole rehaul of the finance function, to be honest. I think not only did the CFO leave, but we had a senior manager of accounting. We had an intern who pretty much all left at the same time. And for me, the value in that was I was really able to tap people across the organization that I felt like, hey, you're an intern in our legal department, but I need you to help me learn how to cut checks because I have so, much going on. I can't quite figure out how to even load paper into the printer. So, please help me. I also was able to hire the people that I felt like I could work the best with and people that could really butcher some of the areas that I felt like maybe I was struggling with. Somebody who was detail-oriented on the payroll side, where I knew that was a focus for the finance team, but I just didn't have an interest in it. So, yes, there was somebody who was brought in to support the transition, help more of the strategic vision right off the bat, let me get my feet wet through various months. But it was pretty quickly after that, that it was me. And I think it forced me to build my confidence. I have to tell you, I mean, there were so, many times that I felt completely over my head. I can't believe they're trusting me to do this. But what I realized over time was they all were counting on me, and they weren't just counting on me to get the job done, but they wanted me to be successful because my success meant their success. And so, I think that mental mind shift for me was one of the most important things for me to recognize because If somebody's trusting me to get a certain project done and I have no idea what I'm doing, they're asking me because they have a level of confidence in me from the beginning. And over time, you look back, and you think, oh my gosh, I thought I was never going to be able to accomplish X, Y, and Z. And look, I did that. And now because of that, I'm building, and I can do all of these other things. So, it's been a pretty incredible journey. I feel very fortunate. 

Hannah Munro: 9:40 

It's a really interesting one. Not many people walk into work on their first day and have to sort of step back and rethink everything. But I guess it's also a massive opportunity and a chance to do things your way from the beginning, which is really unique and rare. So, what sort of challenges did you face first coming into that role that you look back on now? 

Niki Heim: 10:04 

Yeah. Yeah. Listen, there were a lot. I'll start even with the fact that we had an ERP system that had data, journal entries, invoices, all of that stuff in it, but it didn't align back to the financials. The financials were being done, data was being exported from the system and the financials were being done manually. So, that was a challenge. I had to figure out very quickly, how do we get the data that was in the system to be aligned to the way we wanted to report, right? So, it was getting with stakeholders internally as well as with investors in the board and saying, here's our reporting package. This is what it's going to look like. Are you on board? Yes, or no? And making revisions. It was really setting up our financials to be able to report not just on a consolidated basis, but also by client, by department, which means linking it through the payroll system, right? So, having to integrate not only with our own financial systems, but with other systems throughout the organization. And very quickly after getting those things in place, it was, okay, great. Now we have these financial P&Ls by department, by client, but they're not being fully allocated. So, we got to go find a time tracking system and we need to get that implemented and set up all the processes behind that. So, I think right off the bat, the first biggest obstacle was from a financial reporting perspective. And then after that, tying into all the automation and data, it's really making sure you have the technological strength to be able to make the decisions that you need to make and Whether on the fly or after some analysis work. But I think so, often, even today, right? I mean, I think so, often CFOs are faced with having to make decisions at such a fast pace. And without good data, you're pretty much blind. So, ... Those were some, some pretty big obstacles. I think, you know, my age is, was definitely an obstacle that I had to overcome. Um, I was 28 years old when I came in and I was working, it was a Bain capital PE company with a board with some very powerful people, um, having to prove myself that sure. I didn't know everything and still don't, but, um, I was driven, hardworking, and willing to put in the time to make sure that all the people that were around me, executive team, CEO, all the way down to the first analyst that was just last hired, that I was going to get it done for them. 

Hannah Munro: 12:38 

Do you know what? And I think you've made some amazing points. And for those that are listening that perhaps haven't caught all of them, I think the first thing that was fascinating was the way that you use resources across the organization so, I think there's always a fear when you're coming into a new role that you can't ask and you can't sort of get that help from across the organization but it sounds that you leverage both at a board level and also sort of your you know that c-suite level as well those resources really well 

Niki Heim: 13:07 

yeah, I had to I was I was forced to and um. 

Hannah Munro: 13:11 

it 

Niki Heim: 13:12 

It was an interesting time for the company because I think really, given how the financials were being reported, people didn't really understand the role that finance could play in the long run at Logic Source. And I laugh because the colleague of mine at the time, who I did tap to finance, help print checks and all that. I mean, she's moved her way up the organization as well. So, I think it just goes to show that if you're willing to jump in and do something that you don't know how to do or, you know, something that is outside of your area of expertise, it's a way to help get your name out there for people to recognize you and to move up the corporate ladder. 

Hannah Munro: 13:52 

Absolutely. And they always say, pick a boss, don't pick a company necessarily. Yeah. It's so, true. It's so, true. And the other really interesting point, and so, we're literally just about to launch a new e-book, funnily enough, on shifting into a new CFO role. And it's quite interesting to hear all of the things that you were talking about align with that, is that you just need to get the numbers right. The fact that, you know, you had... one set of reports and one set of financial numbers and getting the basics and the core accounting nailed is just such a critical role. You can't do any of the interesting strategic things without that information being right. 

Niki Heim: 14:36 

Yeah, I think the main focus right off the bat has to be getting the process procedures, kind of corporate governance stuff in place so, that and the right team, right? You can't do any of this stuff without the right team surrounding you. Making sure all of that stuff is in place. So, the weekly, monthly, kind of repetitive tasks that occur in a finance-type world, those happen. And sure, they might not all be automated, but they're set up in such a way that you can rely on them. The controls are in place that if there is a breakdown, you see it, you recognize it, you jump in and you get it fixed. But for the most part, that stuff, you know it's just going. which allows the CFO to elevate and step up and become more strategic. 

Hannah Munro: 15:19 

Yeah, no, absolutely. And there was some interesting statistics that actually most businesses these days need. It was information within a few hours, whereas it used to be within a few weeks, but because obviously the current environment and everything that's happening. And have you found that actually once you made that shift that had an impact on both how you were seen within the business and how finance was seen when you made that shift into better reporting and better visibility? 

Niki Heim: 15:45 

Absolutely. And I also agree with your comment about pace. I mean, I think more now than ever during the pandemic with such uncertainty, the pace of decision making is so, critical. But yeah, once we were able as a finance and accounting team were able to provide reports that were then being utilized for various purposes, those people started to rely on those reports and build them into their own data and metrics and key performance indicators. So, you know, for example, when we're out selling new business and we have to make sure that the deals that we're bringing on are profitable. We do that by making sure the allocations of our centre of excellence and our technology team that the They're right in that we're hiring the people to support the new deals that were coming on. All of that type of data that we were able to provide, I feel like we're able to set templates around that. So, our solutioning process is more streamlined, which ultimately in the long run helps to advance our sales team, sales and growth, right? They're able to hopefully get through the solutions review process faster and therefore convert deals from prospective deals into contracts at a faster pace. 

Hannah Munro: 16:55 

No, absolutely. And it's that role on impact, isn't it? I think sometimes people, I don't know why it is, but a lot of times when it comes to technology finance are the last, a lot of the times are the last team that get looked at. And actually, from what you're saying, you know, the shift in finance has helped drive other conversations and drive other areas of business, including sales as well. 

Niki Heim: 17:17 

Yeah, absolutely. It's critical to help make sure that the business can be predictable. And a lot of the reports to help with that predictive nature come from finance. And if it's not from a financial person directly, the data supporting the reports that they're using is coming from finance. So, I absolutely agree. 

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Hannah Munro: 18:03 

Awesome. So, let's shift on to sort of how you built that team. So, we've talked a lot about tech. We've talked about getting the numbers right. We've talked about leveraging the support within your organization. Talk to me about your team, how you built it up, how you found the right people. 

Niki Heim: 18:19 

Yeah. So, I guess the way I pick my team is I look for people to who have skills that maybe I don't have. Right. Or skills that I have that I at this point in time can't spend all of my focus on. I make sure that. they're driven and that they understand the way that I work. I do not like to micromanage people. I think everybody's an adult and let's let people work the way that they are most productive. And I think, um, that ties into not only how they work, but it’s also when they work, right? So, I have people on my team that, you know, they're working moms. And so, they may have to leave the office at five o'clock, but I know that if I need them at seven o'clock at night or, you know, four o'clock in the afternoon on a Saturday or Sunday, they're going to be available. I try not to do that, of course, but I think we have such a working relationship where it's built off of trust. If somebody needs something, somebody else is there, right? You know, if somebody needs to go on vacation, who do we have to back up? So, always making sure I have a team of people who are, regardless of level, willing to jump in and do anything, either in the department or across the business. If there's a need for somebody to help out on a solution, then raise your hand and go do it. If there's a need to help out on some analytics for a current customer, then raise your hand and go do it. You're not above or below anything. And that's the type of team that I like to have around me. 

Hannah Munro: 19:47 

I love that concept. You know, a team of raising hands, I think is a great, great concept. And like you say, you're not, you're not above doing anybody's job, you know, if it's needed. So, that's fantastic. I love that. That is a, that's a great vision and I guess a great goal. A great concept for any team, let alone a finance team. So, I loved you talking about sort of working with working moms. And I think that's a great sort of segue into one of the reasons I was excited to have you on the podcast was to talk about, you know, the current trends are becoming really, really obvious. And I think in procurement, which is the industry that you're in, it's particularly challenging in that I think it's something like 7% of C-level executives are female. across the board. So, why do you think that is? What do you think is actually driving or is it driving away? Is it just that there's not the opportunities? 

Niki Heim: 20:45 

You know, Hannah, I think it's a really interesting question. And I think given my background and unique path, I have, I really don't know, right? I'm not, I'm not quite sure, but my thought here would be, you if you're really willing to put in the work and it's something that you really want and you, you focus and find people to your comment before it's don't find the company you want to work for, find the boss, right? If you find people that you're comfortable working with who are going to motivate and accelerate you, I think the opportunities are there. Um, I think so, often people, male and female, can get stuck into the, well, they won't give me a promotion or they're not going to let me climb the corporate ladder. Whereas I think, and I'm kind of an example of that, you have to put in the work. And regardless of gender, race, any of that stuff, I think that... the opportunities are 100% available. Sure. Is it a little bit more difficult, maybe a lot more difficult from my perspective, being a working mom? Absolutely. I think for me, I didn't have the struggles coming up the ladder as a woman. It really, for me, my struggles were when I became a mom. You really have to figure out time management, how to balance work and personal life. There's, the perception sometimes I think now with the pandemic, it's less, but there's the perception that you have to be in the office. You know, if working hours are nine to five, you should be there from seven 30 to seven 30. Um, And I did that. But when you become a mom, you can't necessarily do that all the time. I think the pandemic has helped us get to a point where you are able to leave because you have to. You have to go pick up the kids at 5 o'clock. You can sign back on. And at 8 o'clock at night, you'd be surprised to see, now with Teams being available, you can see everybody who's online at every time, the number of moms that are on. at night is incredible to me. And I think that's when we get the majority of our work done. And sure, all day long, we're in meetings, we're focused, we're getting stuff done. But there used to be more of a perception that the mom that was leaving at 4.45 maybe wasn't putting in as much effort, whereas now I think that's not there. So, in terms of opportunities for women, I would say now more than ever, there's the opportunity you just have to put in the work and make sure you're getting yourself known. 

Hannah Munro: 23:13 

And that's an exciting, exciting thought for the, you know, for those females out there that, you know, there are mums perhaps looking for that next step up, that their hard work whilst it was being done before, perhaps not, I think that's a really interesting observation, perhaps not recognised or not understood. And I think there's a lot more around working dads, having flexibility. And I think certainly the pandemic has been a big shift. And on a personal note, do you think that's going to change? What's your perceptions of what's going to happen when obviously things shift back and workplace is going to be more of a focus for a lot of organizations? 

Niki Heim: 23:54 

Yeah, it's hard to tell. I mean, our office has been open since July on a voluntary basis, right? And there are people, a core group of people who go in every single day. There's people who go in a couple times a week. I happen to be one of those people that don't. in July when we were opened, I was there every day because I had to get out of the house. Right. Now I'm doing a little bit more of the mixture of both. And I think that people are going to workers specifically, our employees are going to expect some sort of balance because we've all proven over the last 15 months that we can do it in a more flexible environment. And to be honest, I think some people are more productive outside of the office. You know, the benefit is, you know, people are home at night to have dinner with their family. And like I said, you can sign back on, you can get your work done at night. I think the biggest thing for companies to overcome is so, long as the, there's that balance between productivity, making sure the work is accomplished, the company's achieving its goals. And also, there's, there is a face-to-face element to it. You can do face-to-face on the computer, but all sitting in a room together, there is something special about that. There is still something special about being able to run to the office next to you and say, hey, did you hear this? Or let's jump on a call together. That is a little bit more difficult to do when you're remote. But I do think, and I hope that companies see that the balance between that makes for happier employees and therefore the culture and empowerment of the employees across the business. Yeah. 

Hannah Munro: 25:30 

And that's not just obviously a female focus piece. I think that's the general employee engagement, isn't it? In that actually, you know, I have to say I'm a massive believer in that the virus and the pandemic is obviously a horrible thing. you know, horrible event. And I don't think it's anything we will forget in our lifetime, certainly, but it has, you know, you've got to look for a silver lining somewhere. Totally. And this is, this is one of them that, that opening the door to flexible working and that whole philosophy. So, and I, and obviously, as a supporter of working mums, having had a few in your team, what are some of the benefits that you've actually seen to... Have you seen any difference? Do you just... And this is a really interesting... Do you... I won't use the word discriminate because that's always a dangerous word. But do you find any benefits to hire working mums versus others? Or is it literally just whoever is right for the job? 

Niki Heim: 26:29 

I... think about whoever's right for the job. I think about what are the specific projects and tasks that this person is going to be working on and whoever's experience and vision for their career fits that. I think they're the right person. I do think the benefit of a working mom is the requirement to have really good time management skills. I mean, you're going to see... kind of no messing around. There's not a whole lot of opportunity in a 24-hour day to have a lot of time to yourself, let alone have time to go mess around. It's all business all the time. So, I think that's one of the benefits. Sure, if there's a team of all working moms, it's juggling. It's making sure that somebody is always there to support the other when they might have to go do something. But at the end of the day, I'd say male, female, mom, dad, non-parent, whoever's right for the job should be the person to get the job and whoever's right for the advancement, then they're the right ones for the advancement. And 

Hannah Munro: 27:33 

out of interest, when you look around at how companies are approaching the lack of diversity across all sorts of elements, not just sort of females in executive roles, what do you see as some of the things that perhaps should be done differently in how they approach it? 

Niki Heim: 27:50 

Yeah, I think it's a little... you know, the word that's coming to mind is scary. I think it's a little bit scary to think that there has to be a quota, right? So, you have to have X number of females versus males. You have to have X amount of diversity and we're defining diversity as A, B, and C. I think about, you know, my husband, my brother, my boss, my colleagues who are all And I feel that sometimes there might be this potential reverse discrimination or lack of opportunity for them, even though they're working just as hard, maybe harder than somebody who gets the job. Right. And I think it's a very kind of tricky conversation to be having. But I still go back to right person, right? right work ethic. What is the business looking for? And find the right person. There's got to be a level of ambition, willingness to do the work, put in the hours. Regardless of if you're male, female, you have to just keep going, it's not going to be handed to you. And that's the way I hope that we can approach the situation because I agree that diversity is critical. I just hope that it doesn't become a situation where we're handing people jobs just to hit a quota. 

Hannah Munro: 29:16 

Yeah, and that's always worried because somebody goes into that role for a creator without the right skills and qualifications, you're basically proving the critics right if you think about it. So, it is a challenging situation, but we still are faced with the issue of the fact that there is a lack of diversity generally. So, how do you address the fact that there is a lack of SV. And how do you find, is it, do you think it's that people aren't applying or do you think it's that companies aren't set up in the right way to allow them to work at those kind of roles? 

Niki Heim: 29:53 

It's probably a little bit of both. And when I think back, my time at 1009 Sports, I mean, that was probably 90, 95% female, female owned, managed run, powerful women. It was really cool. I left that environment and came to Logic Source, which when I started, there were very few women. Now, I'm proud to say we're about 50-50. We have me and two other very powerful females on the executive team in both HR and our legal functions. I would say it's important for me and not to speak for them, but probably for them as well to be the trailblazers for the other women at the company. Make sure that when I was starting out at Logic Source, I didn't have other females really to look up to, to say, oh, this is how so, -and-so, got to the C-suite. But I did have other females across the business in positions that I could go talk to. We could go for a group run together and say, how do we want to do things differently at the company? And let's just do it. So, for myself now being at the CFO level, I think often about what I can do to help somebody coming up behind me get to this level of being comfortable enough to say, I can do it too. And so, I... Are people not applying? I'm not entirely sure if that's the case or not, but I do think it's important for women like me to really make sure you're being the mentor. I had a lot of support from mentors across Logic Source who were my male counterparts, and I had to get them to believe and be supportive of my journey and my approach. And I was using them to get feedback. Hey, what can I do better? Making sure that they didn't want someone else to come in above me, I can take a lot of those learnings and help give that to other females across the business. 

Hannah Munro: 31:55 

And for other females that are in very male dominated sectors. I love the fact, and actually I'll pull that one out to what you just said. So, finding mentors, whether male or female within your current environment can support you. How, what else would you, what are the sort of hints and tips would you give anyone else that's in a very male dominated industry that's looking to shift up to say, look, you know, this is how you can do it. 

Niki Heim: 32:20 

Yeah, I think they're people too, right? And they want you to succeed. A lot of them probably have, Wives, sisters, daughters, and they're probably not thinking about you as the only female in the room. They're probably thinking about you as the counterpart. So, I would give other women the advice of, you know, use them the same way you would use any other female that's in the room. Ask them, what can I do differently? Or what would you like to see somebody in my role do? How can I support you? And as they begin to build trust with you and your abilities, I think they're going to look at you the same way they would look at any other male in the room. You know, I do think that females can provide a level of balance in a room of all men. I think sometimes females have the ability to hear all sides of a story. And so, in my own experience, I have been a sounding board, you know, in a meeting with a bunch of people, as well as individually one-on-one and being able to provide some advice. Don't be afraid that just because they're male, that they're going to be more powerful. That doesn't have to be the case. 

Hannah Munro: 33:26 

And I think that's a really good, what's the word? There's a really good pointer in that it's not just about the loudest voice in the room. Sometimes there's a real power in silence and being the listener. And I love that you brought that out. So, you know, I'm very aware that, you know, this conversation has run away with this, and we are already almost out of time. But, you know, for our listeners out there, for those that are looking to make, to be able to bring in the right people, but perhaps encourage more females to head up the ladder and to apply even. What do you think they need to do differently to build a workplace that allows that to happen and that creates a scenario in which more females feel that they can fill those roles? 

Niki Heim: 34:19 

I think one of the most important things is creating a culture where people feel there's an openness, there's a flexibility in terms of, um, as I mentioned before, everybody's an adult. So, get the work done. It doesn't have to be, you know, you're stuck at your computer from, from nine to five, as long as you get the work done, get the work done, which will, I believe allow more moms specifically who are working in the industries to, um, To feel like, okay, you know what? I can do this. I can still provide the value I know I can provide, even if my hours are going to be a little bit different than other people. For the recruiters, I would say, you know, branch out into areas that might be more women-dominant, right? So, find some groups and clubs that might have women in it, in the title of it, just to go find, you know, people that you might not have... might not have come to you directly. And I really do think that just that culture across the business and making people feel like they're included is critical. 

Hannah Munro: 35:19 

Absolutely. And that's a great way to end the podcast. Well, thank you so, much, Nikki. You've been a fabulous guest. And if people would like to learn more about Logic Source or find out more about your journey, what's the best place to sort of to learn about that? 

Niki Heim: 35:35 

I think just www.logicsource.com. It will give you all of the information on the company as well as contact information. So, it's been so, nice talking to you, Hannah. Thank you so, much for having me on. It's been an absolute pleasure.