29. Dealing with a Psychopathic CEO: The CFOs Survival Guide - with Jack McCullough

29. Dealing with a Psychopathic CEO: The CFOs Survival Guide - with Jack McCullough

Hannah Munro: 0:48 

Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0 and I want firstly I want to say thank you to everyone. I'm really excited to see that we've passed the 4,500 downloads mark which is very exciting for us, and we've had some great comments and some great messages from all of our listeners. So, firstly I want to say thank you so, much for listening and continue to listen and for recommending it to others and secondly for all those who've sent through ideas for topics and subjects keep them coming. I've some great guests lined up and talking of great guests with me today is one of my favourites, Jack. So, Jack is the president of the CFO Leadership Council, but the reason he's on today is actually to talk about his new book, The Psychopathic CEO, The Executive Survival Guide. So, thanks, Jack. It's great to have you back on the show. 

Jack McCullough: 1:37 

Great to be here, and congratulations on 4,500 downloads. I looked into doing a podcast myself, and that's an impressive number. There's not a lot of people that do it certainly as quickly as you, so, kudos to you, but I'll say I'm not surprised because you put together a great show. 

Hannah Munro: 1:55 

Oh, thanks, Jack. And to be fair, I will say it is all down to our guests. And, you know, we've had some great feedback on some of your earlier sessions as well. So, thank you again for coming back on. And I'm really interested to talk about your new book. What are concepts to talk to me about? Tell me what motivated you to sort of come up with this topic in this book? 

Jack McCullough: 2:16 

Well, we actually had a program at one of our events. This was a couple of years ago called The Psychopathic CEO. And the speaker was an FBI agent. And she was describing the traits of a psychopathic CEO. And I had kind of a eureka moment. I said, oh, my God, I won't say who because he's still around. But he was a psychopath. He checks all of these boxes. I actually worked for a psychopath. You know, I just thought he was a jerk and a crook. But then, you know, she said, by a show of hands, how many people do you think work? How many of you think you may have worked for a psychopath in your career? And almost half the people raised their hand. And this was a room full of chief financial officers. And like, oh, my God, this is a really big problem. So, I started looking into it and talking to some of the members. And I realized, you know, if I could write a book, I might be able to actually help some executives survive working for a psychopath. 

Hannah Munro: 3:13 

So, what is the definition of a psychopath? Like, how do you actually define or figure out whether somebody is one? 

Jack McCullough: 3:20 

yeah, it's um it's one of those things like being a psychopath is not equivalent to say being diabetic, where there's a hardcore definition. There are personality tests that you can take and whatnot, and there's a series of questions you can ask. But someone like you or I, we're not really qualified to diagnose whether or not someone's a psychopath. Even if you take the test, you might get some of them wrong. But I think there's sort of some things you can look for. One is they tend to have some very superficial charm to them. It's all surface level charm. They're very manipulative. They're very likable, but they're doing it in a way they're essentially playing a character. And they're trying to make you like the character rather than him or her. But I say him because something like 90% of psychopaths are believed to be males. So, yeah, it's a strange phenomenon. But, yeah, so, they tend to be, you know, the thing you want to look for is they're manipulative, they're superficially charming, and they're thrill seekers, and they're extremely optimistic. They'll stab their best friend in the back because they don't actually like their best friend very much. But, you know, there's a lot of vanity, a lot of egotism, and they think things should happen to benefit them and for no other reason. But it's difficult to say because a lot of them are really smart and certainly the ones who become CEOs and they themselves have access to the same checklist and whatnot. And they modify their behaviour accordingly. So, they're a very dangerous opponent to have because a lot of times you don't even know that they are your opponent until it's too late. 

Hannah Munro: 4:59 

And for CFOs generally, that CEO position, finding the right person to work with is critical to not only obviously the success within that role, but also your future career progression. So, what sort of impact can it have had a psychopathic CEO on an individual in that kind of role? 

Jack McCullough: 5:21 

You know, it's an interesting thing because like not all psychopaths are necessarily evil. And in fact, there are some psychopaths or people at least who display traits of psychopathy that you might consider working for. Steve Jobs is believed to have been a psychopath, right? One of the great innovators, he made technology that improved the world, but a lot of people that have worked for him and who have described him, classic traits of psychopathy. Just, you know, I'm actually, you know, chewing people out in public for no particular reason. And he's done it in investor presentations, you know, very publicly. I don't mean just at company meetings, but he's done it in front of the world. But, you know, he just had some odd traits. Like one of the things he did, for example, to relax, he would take his shoes off and soak them in public bathrooms in the toilets. Can you imagine such a thing? Yeah, you're looking at me. It's too bad. This is only an audio thing. Yeah. 

Hannah Munro: 6:27 

Yeah. 

Jack McCullough: 6:28 

The look on your face was priceless. It's a shame your audience won't get to see that one. But yeah, I tell people that like, oh, I heard you wrong. What did you say? But no, you that's he actually literally would take his shoes off at the office and soak his feet in the toilet. But, you know, that's like a very strange thing to do. I mean, they're, you know, not every psychopath does stuff like that, but he was a very different man. And a lot of people think that, you know, part of it made him successful, you know, that he was psychopathic and he could make quick decisions mercilessly and be very successful because of that. On the other hand, like Harvey Weinstein from the movie producer, you know, he's another psychopath and he could ruin your career, but he's not. it's an interesting thing because like he was a brilliant movie producer and this is a guy he actually wrote into his employment contract basically that if he sexually harassed women he could get out of it by paying a fine so,, he guaranteed in advance that he could definitively harass women and keep his job as long as he would pay like the legal bills out of his own pocket and you know you're like yeah that's sort of the right reaction like oh my god right but Think about it. The board of directors, he was the CEO of a public company, I believe. Certainly, he was the CEO of the company. They had independent board of directors. They approved it. Probably, the chief financial officer and the chief human resources officer knew about it. Probably, the company's lawyers approved it. actually wrote the agreement up right can you imagine being like a first year law student or first year law graduate and you're writing this crazy employment contract up that basically empowers somebody to sexually harass his co-worker without punishment but uh Harvey was charming in his own way he was extremely good at his job and people were making a lot of money with him and so,, nobody really challenged him a little bit you know nobody Somebody probably should have said, no, this is wrong. You can't do it. But, you know, people getting wealthy, they love being part of, you know, he made great movies, you know, Shakespeare in the Park and some other great runs. I'm not the biggest movie buff in the world. And people didn't want to rock the boat because they were making important art, and they were making money. So, why rock the boat? But, you know, as a CFO, you could say, well, that wouldn't have happened if I were there. But, you know, they probably had one of the best CFOs in the world. working there and that person didn't do anything to stop it. 

Hannah Munro: 8:59 

I think that's an interesting piece, isn't it? It's very easy to step back and say what you would do in a situation, but until you're in that situation, that's, you know, you can never tell until you're in that same exact scenario, you know, with your back against the wall. That's a very hard call to make, to be fair. I'd like to think that everyone would, and somebody would call it out. And that is amazing that he got away with pushing that in a contract and it hasn't been flagged earlier. That is insane. 

Jack McCullough: 9:28 

Yeah, I mean, no one resigned from the board in protest. And, you know, ultimately, they paid a price. But, you know, he was doing it for quite a while. Right. I mean, you know, he had the money. the studio that was named for him and his brother, and then he was with Miramax before. I mean, he had a pretty lengthy career, and if he was just sort of like a normal person, you know, he would be remembered amongst the great film producers in history. You know, he'd be a notch below Steven Spielberg, and he'd be right there with Woody Allen and some other people, but, you know, he was a common criminal. So,,, on the other hand, like Elizabeth Holmes from Theranos, if you know that and um like relatively early in the game her CFO challenged her on a lot of the assumptions in the financial model and the viability of it so,, she just fired him and she never hired a CFO again but you know this guy did the right thing right I mean but he was apparently the only person that ever challenged her and she's a classic psychopath Right. Because she was, she had for those who may not know, Theranos had a blood testing, non-invasive blood testing kit. And it fundamentally never worked. But she actually at one point had a net worth herself of seven billion dollars. And she was allowing people to take this blood test, knowing it wasn't work. So, people are getting false positives and false negatives. And she simply didn't care. She let it continue for years. And it wasn't until she was caught that they finally stopped doing it. But she was a classic because what makes these psychopaths so, dangerous is they're very likable and they're very believable. Some of the people that she influenced, some of the great people in the United States, the Clintons, both of them were backers of hers. Both Michelle and Barack Obama were backers. There was a Secretary of State, George Shultz. He was the Secretary of State under the first President Bush. And he was also a backer, and his grandson worked there. And when he, and he was on the board of directors, he went to Secretary Schultz and explained what was going on. And he said, every generation has one great thinker. Elizabeth Holmes is the Sir Isaac Newton of this generation. How dare you accuse her? And he actually sided with Elizabeth Holmes over his own grandson. And, you know, his grandson ultimately was proven right. But, you know, they, they, they work very hard to seem very believable. 

Hannah Munro: 12:02 

And it's interesting because when you think about the word psychopathic, you do think of axe murderers and what I would say truly evil people. But actually, you're mentioning some really big names there, people that you wouldn't necessarily associate with the word psychopath. Well, maybe, you know, maybe a couple of them you might consider it. Are there any others that are sort of in mainstream that we might not, you know, associate with the word psychopath? 

Jack McCullough: 12:32 

Yeah. And a lot of them are more narcissist, which is kind of a cousin of a psychopath. One of the big differences between a narcissist and a psychopath is that a narcissist can actually feel guilt and shame and embarrassment. But A medical person wouldn't like it, but if I'm lumping them together, it's because the behaviour is often the same and the impact of the behaviour is the same. But one who might fit into that, Adam Neumann of WeWork. If you know that, are they over in London? 

Hannah Munro: 13:03 

Yeah. So, yeah. I think he was originally from Soho or certainly he did, you know, he spent a lot of time there, to be fair. And I was actually wondering, given the Elizabeth Theranos story, whether he's one as well. Because he's got an incredible, or he did have an incredible following within his team, didn't he? 

Jack McCullough: 13:22 

Yeah. A lot of people believed him. Yeah. I mean, this is a guy, you know, the company at one point was worth $57 billion. despite really not having a profitable business model. But aside from that, he wanted to be the world's first trillionaire with a T. He wanted to colonize Mars. He wanted to be the first person to live forever. And by the way, be president of the Earth, not the United States. He wanted to be president of the entire planet. And like you wonder, how could this guy not have been laughed out of the room? Because he said these things publicly, not privately. And, you know, why weren't people, you know, why didn't the board say, dude, you know, settle down. You know, you're probably not going to be president of the earth and be a trillionaire. But he did it publicly and he got away from it. But, you know, if you want to go on YouTube at some point and check him out, very rare will you find a more likable, charismatic guy than him. But he's probably not a psychopath as much as he is a narcissist, I think, because, you know, he seems like a decent family man. You know, he has, I think, five or six kids. By all accounts, he's a wonderful husband and father. He's just, you know, he's just got an ego that's at a different level than anyone you and I are ever likely to meet. But he charms some of the smartest investors in the world. And by the way, Silicon Valley, that's a hotbed for psychopaths. They're very attracted to the whole entrepreneurial culture. Fake it till you make it. That's right up a psychopath's alley, right? 

Hannah Munro: 14:55 

Absolutely. I was going to say, how common is it? So, you're saying it's really common in Silicon Valley. Is it common generally to have psychopathic CEOs? 

Jack McCullough: 15:04 

Yeah, and forgive me, I'm guessing most of your audience is from your country, but I know American data a little bit better. But by one study, 21% of CEOs are psychopaths. 21%. 21%. 

Hannah Munro: 15:18 

Yeah. 

Jack McCullough: 15:19 

So, to put it a little bit in perspective... The prison population in the United States, only 15% of them are psychopaths, right? So, if you take like a random person at a prison or a random American CEO, it's more likely the CEO is the psychopath than the prisoner is. So, it's a scary thing. And I did a survey on LinkedIn asking CFOs how many think that they've worked for a psychopath. And 70% of them said that they did or they're almost certain that they did. And it was like only like 18% said that they had no reason to think that they've ever worked for a psychopath. So, you think about it, if say one out of five CEOs is a psychopath, and if you're a CFO and you have six jobs during the course of your career, there's a real good chance you're going to work for at least one, right? 

Ad 1: 16:10 

Absolutely. 

Jack McCullough: 16:12 

Yeah, you know, to go six for six when, you know, one in five, yeah, there are people who are going to do it, but you have to kind of get a little bit lucky. You're defying the odds if you didn't. And again, that's assuming that you have five, six jobs over the course of your career, which is fairly typical these days. In fact, it might even be a little bit on the low side. 

Hannah Munro: 16:33 

Absolutely. And I guess, what is it like to work for a psychopathic CEO as a CFO? What are the sort of telltale signs that you will see or things that you should be going, yeah, oh, that's not good? 

Jack McCullough: 16:48 

They have a lot of... grandiosity sometimes in the way that they communicate but again some of the smart ones know that psychopaths are that way and so,, you know they don't act that way but you know they'll um sort of flowery almost overgrown language they'll um they'll quote famous people they may not even get it right um but they will to seem smarter in fact I don't know if you recall I did that with you the last time I was on this podcast I was quoting Stephen covey from the habits of highly effective people But in my genius, I attributed it to Confucius. I don't know if. 

Hannah Munro: 17:29 

you caught it. No, I never caught that. I was going to say somebody called you on 

Jack McCullough: 17:33 

1. But yeah, a couple of people at Confucius. It's from Seven Habits. You've only read the book three times. I'm like, yeah, you're right. But the quote was, seek first to understand, then be understood. And for some reason, I wanted to seem smarter than I am. And I attributed it to Confucius. Have you

Hannah Munro: 17:50 

recently taken a test on psychopaths. Yeah, 

Jack McCullough: 17:55 

I know you're kidding. But as I was researching this, I began to think, oh, my. And apparently that's actually a relatively common thing that not only for this sort of thing, but like people are researching diabetic diabetes or whatever it might be. Yeah. you know, they think, geez, I have all these symptoms. You know, you read a medical book and you, it sort of becomes self-fulfilling, but I actually gave myself what's considered, you know, the gold standard of the tests and 30 and over is considered a psychopath. And, you know, I, I got like an 11. So,,, which is actually higher than average, but it's, it's not that bad, but so,,, but yeah, it's, yeah, but you know, you can, Probably give the test to yourself, but you can't really, you and I aren't really qualified to give it to, you know, another person because you just don't know what they're lying about or pretending to be. But the other thing about, you know, working for them, day one, they're sizing you up as a friend or as an opponent, and it's all about how they can use you. So, you know, if they say you're working with a psychopath who's not yet at the CEO level, they're going to identify the power people within the company and they're going to build relationships with them and get information from them and basically build their tribe. So, you if you realize like a little too late, this person might be a psychopath. you know one of the things you got to do geez what did I disclose this person because they're going to pretend to be friends of yours and they're very good at getting you to disclose maybe some personal information uh and I'll give you an example one of my members told me this and he unfortunately figured out after the fact but his um I think it was his son had cancer and um he told his boss who he later found out was a psychopath um that you know he was struggling and it didn't affect his job performance just you know two people going out for a beer and sort of opening up a little bit psychopath put that in the back and then when the CFO was sort of putting things together that something's not quite right here he went to the board and he pretended to be concerned about the CFO and said hey I don't know if you guys know this but mike's son has cancer it's really weighing on him I think we need to just make sure he can do his job, just take care of him and be flexible, acting like who he's concerned with him. And so, now the board, all of a sudden, the whole board realizes that he had a family member with cancer. And then as he got more of a threat, he just called the board and said, look, I think for Mike's own good, we need to fire him. He needs to take care of his family. We're going to give him a nice six-month severance package. Let him focus on the family and get on, boom. From the psychopath standpoint, problem solved, right? Bored was none the wiser. But that's the way they're thinking. If you tell them stuff, they're going to start using it. They're storing it forever, and they're going to use it against you. And if all of a sudden you realize, hey, this guy's a psychopath, you've got an interesting challenge because you're in a war with somebody that might have started two and a half, three years before you, depending on how long the working relationship is. And because they're superficially charming and not everybody can see through it, they've got a lot of people turned against you already. They want to win the battle before it's even fought. 

Hannah Munro: 21:55 

Absolutely. I think that's the hard thing, isn't it? Is that it's not necessarily easy to identify and recognize. There are signs, but it's not always obvious. And I guess, you know, trying to fix what you've told them, I guess, is a challenge. So, if somebody does work for one, what can they do to protect themselves? 

Jack McCullough: 22:17 

Yeah. I mean, again, in my book, I actually interviewed one and he thought the problem was he found the question offensive to the extent he can be offended but he's like okay so,, what does someone have to do to protect themselves from you I'm not inherently dangerous although you know I think the guy kind of is but you know there's the main thing one um document everything really well so,, you know any odd behaviour anything else like that um you know just document it and by the way documented outside of work um this actually the same guy I spoke to he told me it for him it's just very easy to manipulate people he was with the company six months and he persuaded an it guy to give him access to the CEO and the VP of hr's um email he just persuaded him to do it he said he just befriended he said he tends to seek out like kind of nerdy people or loners or quiet people and he makes them part of his tribe and he said look I can't tell you what's going on but there's an issue with CEO and the VP of hr and I unfortunately need access to their emails you're the only one I can trust can you help me and he was like a he wasn't like an executive level person when he did this he was mid-level that's the quality of the opponent you're fighting right so,, you start documenting things on your computer might be reading it You know, it's crazy, right? But yeah, so, you know, document everything. You know, go through sort of your mental catalogue. What does this person know about me? Because there's a real good chance that he's going to use it against you. The other thing is, you know, if you do need to challenge them at the board level, avoid the label of psychopath, even if you're pretty confident that you're right. Focus solely on the behaviour because, again, it's not a crime to be a psychopath. You know, it's certain actions might be criminal or inappropriate, but it's a disease. You know, it's you can't get someone fired for being obese or, you know, being diabetic or whatever it might be. So, focus on the actions and how the detrimental and document them really well. And then, you know, one other thing, you know, one advice I give to people which they don't like is maybe you just don't want to fight this battle. Because you're probably going to lose. This person has probably turned a lot of people against you, and you just aren't aware of it yet. And they're capable of doing that. Again, the same guy, he said just occasionally he'd start a rumour to ruin a person's reputation, you know, for no reason. And he said, but it's an interesting thing in behaviour. You can tell somebody something about your so, -called friend and they're very quick to believe it. And it'll spread through the company like wildfire. So, you know, they're willing and able to destroy your reputation in the battle. And the other thing about them is in the mind of a psychopath, the battle is not over until they've won. So, if you're taking the, you know, you might want to ask, do I really want to be fighting this guy? Because even if you get him fired, he might keep fighting you. You know, he might, you know, there was one guy that totally couldn't prove it. But he got a person that he believed to be psychopathic fired. And on the one-year anniversary for three straight years, the anniversary date, his car was vandalized in his driveway. And like he lived in a no crime community, basically, you know, it was like in that three-year period. It was the only car that was ever vandalized, always on the exact same day and whatnot. And the guy even like the guy's wife's car was vandalized at work. It's like, you know, this guy was just going to get, you know, get his revenge for the rest of his life. They actually ultimately moved to a different part of the country just to escape this guy. So, you know, pick your battles wisely. This might be one you might be better off, you know, looking for your next opportunity. 

Hannah Munro: 26:30 

So, one of the challenges is that, like, they never give up. You know, if they feel wronged, you know, or feel like, you know, they've lost in some way, they will continue. 

Jack McCullough: 26:41 

Yeah, they'll continue the battle until they feel like they have emerged victorious. Because again, they don't care. You know, they don't care if they ruin your reputation or your life, because your only purpose in life is to serve them. If that makes sense. Yeah, it's a strange way of thinking. But on the other hand, you know, some of the famous examples, if you can, you know, harness them, right? I mean, the Elon Musk is a person, I actually don't believe he's a psychopath, but, you know, I've read that people do believe that he is. But, you know, he doesn't commit crimes and whatnot. You know, he does stupid things. He's, you know, I believe he's like smoked pot on a webcast or something like that. And, you know, he's accused people of being paedophiles for no particular reason. And, you know, he says things that a public company CEO certainly should not say. But, you know, given the opportunity to work for Elon Musk for a year, I'd do it. You know, he would he drives a lot of people crazy, like the turnover of his direct reports is extraordinarily high, even by the technology industry standards. But I'd work for him for a year. You know, I mean, you'd have to be pretty thick skinned. But I would do it because, you know, you could learn a lot from Elon Musk in a year, right? But, you know, and if you can get some influence with him and allow him to focus on, you know, the good genius and, you know, not to do some of the bizarre little things that he's been known to do, it's not the end of the world because these psychopaths, a lot of them are extremely focused, great problem solvers. And, you know, so, if they're not breaking laws, which Musk certainly does not, you know, it's not the worst thing that might happen to you. You probably wouldn't like it, isn't it? You know, because he's known for yelling at people and dressing them down in front of the company and whatnot. But, you know, if you can put up with that for a short period of time, why not? Right. You can get rich and work for, you know, Tesla is maybe one of the coolest companies in the world. And, you know, learn from one of the smartest people you'll ever meet. 

Hannah Munro: 28:47 

And I think that's a really interesting point that you make is that it's not a, oh my gosh, they're a psychopath, don't work for them. It's to understand what you're dealing with there and make sure that you're okay and you're protected if you're going to work in that environment. And that, yeah, you don't leave yourself vulnerable. I think, is that what you're suggesting? 

Jack McCullough: 29:08 

Yeah, you know, I wouldn't seek out working for a psychopath. And, you know, maybe if you find one, you should run. But yeah. But in the right situation, it doesn't have to be the equivalent of a corporate death sentence. You know, you can you know, if it's Harvey Weinstein, I don't think any CFO was going to stop him from behaving that way. Elizabeth Holmes, you know, there was just kind of core something fundamentally missing, but. You know, Steve Jobs, you can work with the oddities, you know, if you can maybe coach him a little bit about, you know, not, you know, not going on a sponsor call and, you know, calling out your board members and that type of stuff. You know, maybe it's a workable situation for you. The fact is, you know, that a lot of people did report directly to Steve Jobs for years and it was a productive relationship. But a lot of them, they work in, you know, they want money and power, but they don't want fame necessarily. So, most psychopaths actually don't work for well-known companies because they don't want the attention. They don't want the scrutiny. They just want the money and the power that goes with it. And like, in fact, the one I interviewed, he has a particular business model, I guess, that he follows. He's done it three times. But he will go for a large family-owned business, and he was very specific. So, he's like the founder has retired a while ago and the founder's son is now running the company. But that person is probably may be nearing the age of retirement. And that person has a son. He said, not a daughter. It doesn't work. He said that person might have a son who's going to run the business in the next generation, but he's a complete screw up. And that's the job he goes for. He'll actually basically go to the father who's now the president. And he's actually done this a couple of times successfully. He'll say, look, you want to retire, but you can't because you don't fully trust your son. Am I correct? Right. I'm a good CEO. Why don't you just take a seat on the board? You can spend most of your time golfing and doing other things. I'll run the company and I'll be a mentor to your son for the next two or three years. And I'll teach him the ropes. He said, father, son dynamics. He's not going to listen to you, but it's going to listen to me because I'm not, because I'm not his dad and I'm going to help him be a successful leader and you can go and golf. And, and he does this time and time again. And he basically, he's so, charming and persuasive that he basically gives this, the CEO who's so, concerned about the business and the family legacy, he actually persuades the guy to retire and leave him to run the company and mentor his son. But they're so, charming and they seem so, sincere that they're able to get away with that type of thing. And that's how he makes his living now. He'll target companies like that and go in and make a ton of money for himself for a couple of years. He's like a cyclone, you know, doing his damage, you know, in a trailer park. And, you know, then he moves on after a few years. He's made his money. He's done his damage. He's had his fun. Time to move on. But he doesn't seek fame. He just seeks power and money. Whereas someone who's narcissistic seeks, you know, they want to be famous along the way. 

Hannah Munro: 32:32 

Wow. And I think there's an interesting piece there. How aware are most psychopaths that they are a psychopath? 

Jack McCullough: 32:39 

Yeah, they seem to be aware at a young age that there's something a little bit different about them. They don't necessarily put a label to it. But the ones who are like CEOs, they're kind of aware that they're psychopaths. They don't necessarily care. And again, the one that I interviewed extensively said, He viewed it as a positive, not as a negative, because he called me some dirty words along the way, which I don't think you want me to repeat. But, you know, we're talking a scenario where let's say, you know, it's a scenario that run by. Let's say you're the president of a company and you've got a plant in a, you know, old school town, you know, one of those old school mill towns. It's just not productive anymore. And it's probably time to close it. But on the other hand, it's one of those towns, 20% of the people work at this one plant. So, if you close the plant down, you're going to devastate the entire community, not just the workers, right? You could probably cut that down. I could probably cut it down. But we would probably look for months to find an alternative and spend money retraining people and not do a lot of damage, right? Not this guy. He's like, if I'm going to cut it, I'm just going to cut it. Boom, mercilessly. No severance or minimum severance. But he views me as weak, or he'd view someone like you as weak because we want to sort of do the right thing by the community and our employees. He doesn't care if this plant, you know, if I can close the plant and get, you know, better value in China or Mexico or wherever, why would I keep it open one more day? What do I care about this community? What are they doing for me? Do they care about me? No. So, why should I care about them? But it does actually give them an advantage, which is why so,, many of them you know, why there are so,, many CEOs who are psychopathic because kind of that remorselessness, that ability to focus and make quick and emotional decisions, it's actually not a bad quality in a CEO when you think about it, right? 

Hannah Munro: 34:39 

When you think about what the shareholders want from a company, it's, yeah, 100%. I can see why it's such a common trait because, you know, obviously so, many are driven by the need to make decisions. And I think, yeah, I guess most normal people would struggle to sleep at night after they'd done that too many times. 

Jack McCullough: 35:00 

Yeah, I mean, I've had layoffs that I did years ago in my CFO career. I'm going back like 15 years, and it still kind of bugs me that I did it. I mean, it had to be done, and if I'd somehow refused, I would have been fired, and somebody a little different than me would have executed it. But yeah, it's... It's a crazy thing, but it's interesting because I interviewed a VC investor in what they're looking for in a CEO. And, you know, without realizing it, he didn't know why I was writing the book. And but without realizing it, he described a psychopath. He just I just want someone who can make quick decisions, doesn't get emotional about it. And in fact, like there's one CEO, he met him playing pickup basketball. And he and another guy went up for a rebound. They were fighting over the rebound. And he actually punched the guy in the face. And the VC said, I knew right away this is the guy I wanted on my team. And he used a phrase, I think he said, this guy would punch his grandmother in the nose to make a dollar. But he said it as though it's a compliment. 

Hannah Munro: 36:09 

As if it's a good thing. 

Jack McCullough: 36:11 

Yeah, but he definitely, you know, he... just didn't care as long as he could direct the decisions and make difficult decisions and whatnot. But again, I have a lot of friends in Silicon Valley and the world is certainly a better place because of all the innovation that has come out of there. But when a culture, when they encourage fake it till you make it, it's going to attract those types of things. And the other thing is they like chaos because they can kind of hide in chaos. They don't want to do any actual work. And, you know, a fast-growing, chaotic environment, they can kind of hide and do their behind-the-scenes manipulation, and they don't have any actual responsibilities. 

Hannah Munro: 36:51 

It would be fascinating to take that same survey in 10 years' time to know if it's the same prevalence within the CEO community or whether it changes. It'd be interesting to see whether the shift that's happening at the moment in terms of philanthropy that's coming through at a corporate level, whether that actually impacts on the types of individuals that actually get seen as successful individuals. So, that's a really interesting piece. 

Jack McCullough: 37:21 

Yeah, and it will definitely be because they view a lot of things that you and I might view as strengths as weaknesses. You know, like if you care for your employees, that's to a psychopath, that's a weakness I can exploit. I can't get to Hannah, but, you know, she really likes her team. Maybe I can make her team miserable and get to her that way. That's kind of how they think. So, it's interesting if you have sort of this nice philanthropic bent, that's something to exploit a little bit. If you have a strict moral code, how can I use that against you? 

Hannah Munro: 37:55 

And that's fascinating because a recent podcast we did, there's actually studies that show that those that invest and have good employee well-being and good culture, around employees are actually more successful in terms of revenue and profitability. So, it will be interesting to see if that, and is there any research about the profitability of organizations that are actually run by psychopaths? 

Jack McCullough: 38:22 

Yeah, it's interesting because they're actually really good at getting CEO jobs, but they're not good at doing CEO jobs. as you and I would define it. But, you know, do keep in mind, like one of the traits of a psychopath is a thrill seeker, which means they're going to get bored in a job in a couple of years, probably. And so, they're not actually looking to build long term value for the business the way, you know, you and I might want to. They're looking to, you know, maximize, you know, their own benefits over two or three years. And if they can make a truckload of money in a two or three period and leave the company in shambles, they don't care. To them, that's a good two or three years of spending time well. Another thing, a lot of them, they're capable of faking normal lives. A lot of them don't have any desire to get married. Again, the same guy I interviewed, he realized that having an attractive wife was actually helpful as he climbed the corporate ladder. He actually married someone just basically she was a tool in his corporate pursuits you know she brought him but he spoke about it he didn't like her love her or hate her she was just somebody that he needed basically she was a prop but like he spoke about her so,, coldly and like he you know after a few years he decided he didn't like being married so,, he just divorced her and you know he sort of played this character and she, she genuinely loved him, even though, you know, he's just that good an actor that he hit it. But, you know, he referred to the fact like he, nothing they do is ever their fault and it's the other person always benefits. So, he referred to the fact, well, you know, she lived in a big house that she couldn't afford. I made that happen as a girl. She dreamt of a big wedding. I made that happen. And then he, he even like talked about like, um, alimony, um, after he was paid, but he referred to it as a pension, like you're paying a former employee some money. And he actually ran the numbers of how much money she made from having been married to him for a few years and thought that she made out pretty well. And in his mind, she did, I guess, right? But he didn't consider the fact that she was heartbroken, that her life was ruined and all those other factors that can happen. And that's kind of what you're dealing with. Everything is a prop to help them get ahead. 

Hannah Munro: 40:49 

And to help them get their aims. So, this has been genuinely fascinating. And from those stats, I'm pretty sure that a lot of our listeners would have had at least one boss that might be considered psychopathic. So, what are your top tips? So, for anyone that is in that situation? or perhaps wanting to avoid that situation. What are the sort of the top tips that you can suggest to them, you know, and how can they survive it? Like you said, you know, in terms of, you know, avoiding that individual or avoiding, you know, getting damaged by the individual. 

Jack McCullough: 41:29 

Yeah, what makes them so, formidable, Hannah, is it is tough to avoid them because, again, everything's a game. Like a lot of people say, well, what about a personality test? And those don't work. And they're even less effective right now because they're going to fake answers to a personality test. And they know what it's like to, they'll just blend in. They don't have an actual personality themselves. So, it's not unlike playing a character to fit in. But when you think about it, like your company, which I know you love where you work, right? And you've told me so, a couple of times. But like if someone wants to go and get a job there, they can just go to your website You know, probably look at the jobs, what they're looking for, the type of people that they're playing, that they pay. They can maybe read your code of ethics. Maybe you have an employee of the month so, they can figure out what it is that the company values and its employees. This is all information for them, not unlike an actor studying to play a role. They're learning about your company and they're playing the role. And they're just going to plain lie on something like a personality test. You know, say you and I are going for the same job and we're equally qualified and they kind of like us both about the same and they do a personality test. You give your honest answers, but I've done all these things. I've studied the corporate culture. I, you know, I know what they value in employees. I know what they need and I'm willing to lie to the answers on the question. Who's going to get picked, right? You know, yeah, the dishonest person. So, conventional tools don't really work. A lot can be done in the due diligence type of phase. They don't mind lying on interviews to get jobs. And again, part of the reason that Silicon Valley is attractive is they're not really big on process. the way a lot of companies are. So, you know, the HR people are more worried about, you know, we want to be the cool place to work in town. You know, we want to, you know, we want to have our espresso machines or, you know, whatever it is to attract the young people. But they're not big on compliance. And, you know, if you're an HR person or a CFO, you don't actually do the background checks. You know, not only the references that they give, but the references that they don't give. Okay, this person worked there. You know, who do we know that worked there that's not on his reference page? Find out a little bit about that person. Do the homework in advance. Unfortunately, because Silicon Valley and entrepreneurial culture generally is so, focused on growth and getting things done quickly, they neglect a lot of these things, and it creates an opportunity for a badly minded person. And even like the one guy, he never graduated from college. and um he did go to college and but he just he just didn't graduate but he's like yeah you know he put it look at these idiots aren't going to call the school and check you know why is that my fault if you're not going to be strong enough to check my references shame on you know and even said like one thing he said I asked him if he'd ever committed crimes and he didn't answer um you know he sort of asked me well do you drive over the speed limit and that type of thing But then he later said, look, if a human resources person's stupid enough to use the word password as their password, let's not have any sympathy for them. So, you know, I'm guessing he's actually, you know, probably getting access to people's email while he's a candidate. He's just guessing what their password might be. And it even got to the point, like, you know, if you ask, what's your kid's birthday? A lot of people use their children's birthdays for their password, as it turns out. So, he's aware of that. And what the heck, I'll take a guess. Do you know, maybe, you know, I won't get right every time, but once in a while I can get access to some great information. So, but, but yeah, the main thing is, you know, document everything. I didn't really answer the original question. You know, get people involved early, but recognize that they may have been turned against you a little bit. So, you know, sometimes your best bet is to go to the, the company's counsel as opposed to the board because, you know, maybe they're the most objective. But do keep in mind their loyalty, at least in the United States, is to the company, not to you. And they are the company's, the company is their client, not the individuals who work at the company. So, if they have to pick between their client and you, even if they kind of like you, they're going to side with the client. Depending upon how deep this is going, you probably might want to get your own attorney. And, you know, just it can get really ugly in a hurry with these people. So, And, you know, there is kind of an element of, you know, he may have poisoned the well against you a little bit. So, just be careful of that. Don't trust anyone because it's going to get back to him. There's a good chance. 

Hannah Munro: 46:24 

Wow. So, that's brilliant tips, though. So, document everything. Be careful who you talk to. Be aware that they might be being manipulated. And, yeah, make sure that you get some outside guidance if you think you're in any way vulnerable at all. 

Jack McCullough: 46:39 

Yeah. And, you know, think like a psychopath. because they're going to think in their own mind it's perfectly rational. What is the best move for me to make that benefits me the most? So, try to put yourself in that position. Can you appeal to this person's sense of fairness and decency? No, you can't. They may pretend that they care and that they're decent, but they really don't. So, try to learn what you can about psychopaths if you're working for one. And just sort of assess the thing is, but you know, maybe the thing is don't have this battle. You know, depending upon how entrenched is, you know, because I, again, the same guy, he said, you can't, I can't lose. I, the board is in my pocket. I've got people who are spying on you. Your own team has been turned against me. That type of thing has been turned against you. They're loyal to me, not to you. you're going to be fighting a very lonely battle against an opponent that's been gearing up for it for two years. Good luck. So, you really may not want to fight the battle. Obviously, you have some loyalty to the people that hired you, but you've got to take care of yourself and your family too. 

Hannah Munro: 47:52 

Absolutely. So, pick your battles as well is a great tip to finish on. So, if people want to read more about your book, when is it out? When, where can they find it? What's the best way to, to have a look and to find out more about the psychopathic CFO? CEO, I should 

Jack McCullough: 48:08 

say. There are no psychopathic CFOs. We both know that. Probably one or two, but yeah, I'm actually, I'm self-publishing. So, it'll be available on Amazon sometime around June. And, you know, the beautiful thing about self-publishing is, you know, you can kind of release it on your own schedule, right? When you, it's ready to go you can go but the drawback is you know maybe it's good to have an editor saying giving you a deadline that you have to have to meet it by but uh you know I want it to be good and it's one of those things because I don't have a medical background I've actually learned more since I started writing the book than I knew before I started writing the book. So, every week I'll read a magazine article that'll change my perspective a little bit and whatnot. And I kind of want to include it in the book because I think it's important and will be helpful to executives who are facing this problem. But I think June's a good time frame. 

Hannah Munro: 48:59 

Absolutely. So, a nice, I won't say, I'm not sure how many people will be sitting on a beach this year, but definitely a good summer read. So, thank you so, much, Jack, for coming on the show. It's been fabulous, as always, to have you on. And yes, I look forward to reading the book in June. 

Jack McCullough: 49:16 

Wonderful. Thanks, Anna. Great to see you. 

Hannah Munro: 49:19 

And for our listeners, I just want to say thank you again. And if you've read any great books recently and you have any great topics that you want to share, please do reach out. All the details are on the show notes, and we will put the link to Jack's profile and the book when it's released into the show notes. So, thank you again, Jack. And yeah, take care of yourselves, guys. And avoid those psychopathic CEOs.