56. CFO Stories: The Curious CFO with Paul van der Walt, CFO, greenHat

56. CFO Stories: The Curious CFO with Paul van der Walt, CFO, greenHat

Hannah Munro: 1:12 

So, hello everybody and welcome to this episode of CFO4.0. My name is Hannah Munro, and I am your hostess today and today's a really interesting topic in fact and it's all about the power of curiosity and what that means for CFOs. So, with me talking about this topic and if you follow him on LinkedIn or if you've seen any of his posts it was actually one of those that prompted me to reach out. So, welcoming to the show is Paul van der Welt who is the founder of Green Hat CFO. So, welcome, Paul. Lovely to 

Paul van der Walt: 1:44 

you on. Thank you. Yeah, no, it's lovely to be here. I'm, of course, in a sort of metaverse, curious about the curiosity of being here. It's lovely. It's nice to meet you as well. 

Hannah Munro: 1:55 

It's lovely to meet you and to talk about this concept. So, before we get into sort of what prompted those posts on LinkedIn and almost our conversation today, tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you end up doing what you're doing now? 

Paul van der Walt: 2:10 

So, at the moment, I've been fairly active on LinkedIn in the last, I guess, year and a half. And part of that has just been posting about the sorts of topics I'm interested in. And I guess curiosity is part of that. I think I'm naturally a curious person. And so, I'm quite interested about what how things tick, how people tick, how the world ticks, what happens, all that sort of stuff. So, I think probably naturally I've ended up posting in those sorts of areas. And not for any particular reason. There's nothing hidden here or anything like that. It's just natural curiosity about different aspects of life. And I think I came across you at some point and have listened into a couple of the podcasts. And here we are through the power of LinkedIn. 

Hannah Munro: 3:01 

Absolutely. Power of networking. 

Paul van der Walt: 3:03 

Absolutely. 

Hannah Munro: 3:04 

So, how did you end up working? What's your background in finance? 

Paul van der Walt: 3:09 

My background in finance. So, I started... I did engineering. If we go way back, I did engineer as a degree. So, we go all the way back to that. And then I went into industry and so, qualified with PwC and did the accounting route, as many of us do, and then moved into industry after I realized that I didn't really know what a budget was or how things worked or anything like that. And I've just worked primarily in retail, consumer, branded goods, that sort of area. And I think there's a link to the engineering side. I am interested in things that you can sort of touch, see, feel, get a grip of, et cetera, in terms of brands and products and services. And then more recently, I've been overseas a couple of times. So, my wife works with the civil service. So, we've been fortunate enough to be posted overseas a few times. And I'd thoroughly recommend that to anybody. So, it's been a real mix of overseas assignments and UK stuff. 

Hannah Munro: 4:12 

Absolutely. So, a whole breadth of experience in different industries. So, you have an interesting tagline on your Facebook, hashtag get curious. So, tell me, where did that come from? 

Paul van der Walt: 4:25 

That's actually come from, I sat down last year and started to think about what makes me sick and who I am, not in too much of a bit of a navel-gazing exercise, I guess, that you have from time to time through your career or when things happen. And particularly with furlough, I guess it's happened with a lot of people. You sort of, okay, well, what am I actually about? What do I want to do? How do I want to be? And I use the, I forgot the name of it, the What Colour Is Your Parachute book. which you might be familiar with, and some people might be familiar with. And I recommend it actually. So, I went through a number of exercises there and I kept coming back round to what is it that actually gets me up and actually gets me going in the morning, so, to speak. And I think it's problem solving and challenging things and finding solutions. And what's at the heart of that, I think for me, is then just being naturally curious about how things work. I mean, it could take all the way back to childhood. I'm sure many people may relate to this, but I was always the boy that was I mean, back in those days, things were actually bolted together. I sound very old now. You know, things actually came with screws, and you could unscrew stuff, and you could put it back together and you could take things apart. So, I was forever the person who was taking things apart. You would find all sorts of bits and pieces in my bedroom that I had kind of you know, taken a screwdriver to or broke in some sense of seeing the inside and how it works. So, I think it goes back to that. You know, how does something work? And that really became, you know, if I had to boil it down to one thing, then that was a sort of not an epiphany moment. I think that was a bit dramatic, but kind of a realization that, you know, curiosity defined that as one word, if you like, if you wanted to sum it down to that. 

Hannah Munro: 6:25 

Because I think that's an important piece, isn't it? What is curiosity? So, what does curiosity mean to you? 

Unknown: 6:33 

Yeah. 

Paul van der Walt: 6:33 

Yeah, and I think it's an interesting thing. I mean, I think for me, there's an element of just a strong desire to learn or understand something and understand how something ticks and an eagerness to sort of learn something new. So, I think, you know, if I look at myself as perhaps, I'm characteristic like this, but always wanting to learn something new. And I guess we can come on to the drawbacks of some of these things at some point as well. But, you know, always wanting to learn something new, wanting to feel I can master something, perhaps interested in something because I don't understand it, or perhaps interested in something because it's a little bit unusual or it doesn't quite fit the pattern. And I think that then also links to, you know, for me anyway, an analytical side of things as well. So, being curious about why something has gone the way it has, if you turn it more into a financial sort of setting, then it's, okay, well, why have we got that result? How was that? What happened behind the scenes to do that? And I remember an old chap that I worked with many years ago, and he sort of said, there's no point in looking at the ledger. The ledger is past; the ledger is gone. By the time it hits the books, it's all done and dusted. So, for me, it's more about being curious about How did something come to be? And how did something end up the way it was when you apply it in that financial sense? And then looking and then understanding them. I'm not sure it's even metrics. I think if you want to call it levers, that seems a very grand word. But how do things interact in order that that transaction hit the ledger? And understanding from that point of view. And then spotting. I think also curiosity for me is... Spotting patterns and trends. So, again, that's something that I love doing all day long. Others won't. That's just me. Spotting patterns and trends, understanding how one thing might link to another, understanding if this variable changes, then it might have an impact over here. And I think that then leads into, again, in financial terms, all the classic FP&A type of work or pricing, all these sorts of attributes and skills, I think. So, I think I think on a kind of practical level, that's how it comes out. I think there's also a kind of human level to it. You know, I think we are naturally curious beings. This sounds very deep, doesn't it? It's very philosophical. I like that. It's very philosophical. Yes, it's very philosophical. I've probably strayed completely the other way in terms of the practicalities to the philosophy. But that kind of idea of I think I read an article actually somewhere, which was the human beings having that innate capacity to ask why, which may be different to other species, if you like. But I think there is an element of the human psyche and that wanting to know why things may be the way they are and a joy in discovering that perhaps and being curious about in that sense. 

Hannah Munro: 9:59 

I think it's a really interesting conundrum. And one, so, as a consultant, obviously my, my, the first question out of my mouth is, well, why are you doing that? 

Paul van der Walt: 10:07 

Why is that? Why is that? 

Hannah Munro: 10:08 

Yeah.  

Paul van der Walt: 10:09 

And it's actually like, oh, they're asking a question. Why are they asking the question? 

Hannah Munro: 10:13 

Absolutely. And I think that's why part of why I love my job is I actually have a, you know, I'm expected to ask that white, but isn't it interesting that as you go through your career and, And as people become more and more senior, the concept of asking the why question becomes a bit scarier because, you know, there's a sense, isn't there, sometimes that, should I know the answer to this? And actually... 

Paul van der Walt: 10:35 

Yeah, yeah, I do see, yeah, I see where you're coming from because I think, and I, yeah, I do because I can see that as you get further up, perhaps, you know, I suppose there's a, perhaps there's a self-built expectation that you should know the answer. And you should know the context. And I just don't agree with that. I think you should always be asking the why. I don't know if people are generally familiar. I call it the five Ws. I don't know if it's my own particular brand of model, but it's always the who, the what, the why, the where, the how, etc. And I would always encourage people to start with the why. I think we often start with the what or the by when or, you know, a very task-orientated direction, which I understand. You know, business is like that. But I think also I've seen too many circumstances where you get embroiled in something and you've lost the plot and you've forgotten actually why you were going down that path in the first place. And I think it's beholden to people, or at least somebody in the organization, to be asking the questions why. And I don't see it, you know, I personally, I mean, I'm built the way I am. So, I don't see it as weakness at all. I see it as a strength. 

Hannah Munro: 11:51 

But I completely agree with you to be very fair. And actually, one of the most impactful parts of my job is the fact that I sit there and I ask why. I don't necessarily have to do anything with that question. I just need to ask. And it's quite interesting to see the reactions around the room, which is why I brought it up. And I think I agree with you. I think curiosity is particularly important. And that concept of a curious culture is almost. So,, I think one of the things we should perhaps talk about is almost like the importance of curiosity to finance and the finance roles, particularly at the moment as well, because there's a bit of a shift happening, isn't there, in finance in that obviously a lot of less, there's a lot less of the technical accounting and a lot more of that finance business partnering that's supporting the wider organization. So, what do you see as the importance of curiosity to finance? 

Paul van der Walt: 12:50 

It's a really good question, actually. I think there's a whole thing around, for me, around that you touched on the business partnering side of it and the organizational performance side of it. So, I think that's probably one of the most obvious elements. So, if you think about a classic FP&A role in an organization or a business partnering role, I will cite that curiosity and asking the why and the understanding is a very, very central skill to that. I don't think you can fulfil that role unless you've got some of that inkling about you and wanting to understand how things connect and the kind of classic analysis. So, I think that goes a number of different ways, I think. So, again, if we talk about the modern finance function, and I've had some experience of this as well more recently, is also... I'm going to get sidetracked because data is a whole other massive topic that we could probably do an entire podcast on as well. But I think there's an interesting combination of your classic FP&A function. We've got the growth of the data function, data science, analytics, insight. And bringing that together, I think, is definitely an area and a trend where asking the why and understanding the linkages is and also how you construct, you know, data models and data sets and all that sort of stuff, I think is really, really relevant. Never more so,, now that we have, you know, large data sets being collected and being analysed, certainly, you know, in larger organisations, if you talk about mobile phones or this sort of, you know, these types of companies where you're collecting billions and billions of bits of information and data and to mine it, et cetera. So, I think it's really fundamental in that sort of finance aspect. But that's probably the most obvious area, I think. I think the other area for me is a phrase I've come across around cold open strategy, which is a little bit along the lines of anybody within the organization can have a right or a voice or something to say around strategy. And I think that's also important within the finance industry. I don't think strategy just belongs to any one department or function, and I think finance can demonstrate an equal voice at the table when it comes to strategy input, formulation, questioning, why we're going down this road, what's the benefit of going down that one, etc. So,, I think that's another fundamental aspect of it, and I think that's also where finance can bring in Perhaps a slightly more unique point of view or a unique skill set, which is obviously attaching benefits and values and risks and so,, on and so,, forth to all of that. That's probably a fairly classic domain from that point of view, I think. And I think that all links into... perhaps where finance might be now in a more turbulent world, I know there's these popular phrases and then what is it vuca or something yeah probably one of your pages in your handbook isn’t. 

Hannah Munro: 15:57 

it oh absolutely you know the volatile world that we live in yeah. 

Paul van der Walt: 16:01 

absolutely they all the whole vuca world etc which fine if you want to use that phrase but I think it's also interesting you know in this covid environment um just about predicting and understanding the future and being flexible to respond and being prepared for surprises and responsiveness. I read a really interesting article, actually. She, I think, is a professor at Bath University or something like that. But she had a very interesting take on it, which was, you know, for maybe 100 years, we've been in this very... planning, efficiency-dominated type of management thinking, which is fine if you're in a stable world, et cetera, et cetera. But now we're in a state of flux, never more so, than with COVID, post-COVID, quote, the new normal. If I hear that again, I might, yeah. I don't really know what that means. If somebody can describe to me what the new normal means, please let us know. But I do think there's a more there's a need to be more agile and there's a need to understand how things might impact. And I think for me, that leads into another trend or another scenario, you know, another area that I think is quite important, which is, is around scenario, you know, scenario planning. I think I might have written a post on this recently, which was, go and read my post folks. No, it's really around budget, you know, what is a budget anymore? What's the forecast? Scenario planning? How do you remain agile to what's going on? I think too often that I'm as guilty as the next person about having a budget that rolls on, and by the time you've done it, it's irrelevant, you shelve it, all that sort of stuff. So, I think there's another area within finance which is about grasping that planning agenda. And I don't just mean financial planning. I mean the business planning agenda, which can quite rightly sit in finance. It can sit in other areas as well. But grasping that and just saying, look, is this thing fit for purpose anymore? Is it really responsive in the way it needs to be to the environment that's out there? And maybe coming up with something different. And I went to a– oh, this is years ago. I went to a networking event. One of the few I've been to actually in face-to-face in many, many years– I went and joined the budget roundtable discussions. And I can't remember now. It was a pretty big table. Maybe it was 20 people, 30 people. There was only one chap in there that said they didn't do budgets. They just did a version of continuous or rolling forecasts. And everybody was astounded. You know, it's like, oh, how do you manage? How do you do that? Et cetera, et cetera. And they said, well, it works quite well. And I just, you know, I would just urge people to think again about is their budgeting process fit for purpose? Is it really serving the need right now? Is it flexible enough? Does it ask the why questions? And I would encourage people to try some scenario planning if you haven't done it before. There are good and bad. I've been at the bad end of some scenario planning. But I think if it's done well and you've researched it and you've posed the right questions, I think it's a very valuable opportunity tool particularly now. So, I think there's another area we drove back to finance and the finance function around, you know, just addressing that planning aspect of things. And is it responsive and, you know, working in the right way? 

Hannah Munro: 19:34 

Yeah, well, it was an interesting conversation. Literally, the podcast we released this week, actually, just passed with Patrick Dunn. So, he wrote Boards, and he was talking about a new dynamic budgeting process. So, exactly what you're saying, to be very fair. So, it's quite interesting. I've got two interviewees lined up talking about the same piece. But it's what he was saying is that actually Boards, you know, the concept of having a fixed yearly budget. So,, if you can imagine having the same budget out of COVID you know given all of the changes that impacted and he said what he is seeing when he's chairing boards is a more dynamic budgeting and process where it's like well this will be our budget if this happens.  

Paul van der Walt: 20:20 

If it doesn't then this is the plane that we're going to go through. 

Hannah Munro: 20:23 

And that takes a different skill set. That isn't just a let's collect information and make decisions. It's monitoring. It's firstly understanding what are the factors on which you need to depend those budgets. 

Paul van der Walt: 20:38 

Yes, very well. 

Hannah Munro: 20:40 

put. And then also then managing that budget and combining and supporting that process through because, you know, tracking that and monitoring that can be quite challenging as well.  

Paul van der Walt: 20:51 

So, yes. 

Hannah Munro: 20:52 

Yeah. So, and again, 

Paul van der Walt: 20:53 

that's, yeah, no, that's, that's very interesting. Yeah. To, to, Two in one week. 

Hannah Munro: 21:07 

And one thing you did say, which I think I'd like to dig into, is almost the downsides of curiosity. So, we're talking about all of this amazing value it brings. What are the things we need to be aware of as somebody who is naturally curious? What are the downsides? 

Paul van der Walt: 21:44 

Oh, right. Okay. This is where everybody gets to understand. How do we say this? The developmental side of Paul Vanderbilt. If I take myself, I mean, I'll use myself as an example. It's fine. I think one area is, and it touched on a recent survey I saw actually with Finita, one of the recruitment companies, and it's that idea of ideas person. So, overstimulation, over-generation of ideas, perhaps the classic idea I don't know if people will be familiar with Professor Brainstorm, but I always think of Professor Brainstorm. The book I read as a child. But there's kind of the image of the mad, deranged professor who has all sorts of different ideas and has got his grey hair and always fumbling around and all that sort of stuff. So, I do think it can be very easy to overstimulate and generate lots of different ideas and be over-curious. And then I do think you run into the issues of nothing sticks, nothing gets traction, and nothing works. And whilst, I guess we've just talked about agility, if you bring process thinking into this, again, a lot of people are too familiar with that, but from my engineering background and total quality control and all that sort of stuff, you think about process thinking and... you know, the stability of a process. If you disturb a process too much, you're never going to really actually understand how good that process is. So, there is, and perhaps that's a new skill that needs to be developed. There is a balance between, you know, disturbing the status quo and asking the why and pushing around, but also understanding that perhaps you've got to leave things to actually just run in order to understand them. So, I definitely think there's that danger of, you know, coming up with a thousand ideas a day. None of them stick. None of them work. That side of things. And I think there's also perception maybe from that around a lack of application, the idea of learning for learning's sake, which I think is probably fine in a non-business environment. I've got an MBA myself. I would always encourage people to continue to develop and learn. even if it's just learning for learning's sake, I think that's a valid thing. But I do think, you know, from a business perspective, you do have to generate results at the end of the day and value and all the rest of it. So, I think, I wonder if curiosity has got a bad name sometimes from, or at least in an organizational setting, it's kind of like, well, we're not just here to learn, we're here to apply. So, I think the application of things is really important. And, you know, I think, there’s another study I was reading somewhere, but development is critical. So, if you've got a very highly curious person in an organization, it's probably likely that they're going to rise and they've got brain power and intelligence and all those good attributes. But I think if you don't develop them and nurture them and focus and direct, you could end up with a bit of a chaotic sort of environment. And I think that's probably... If you're a finance leader, if we talk about culture, we talk about people and people development, then yeah, you may have some very bright people in your team, in your organization that are actually suited to this. But I think I wouldn't just... I think if you let them just run around the reservation as they wish, that's probably actually not always in their best interests. I think... I don't really like the phrase tough love, but I think in terms of being aware of your leadership style for those sorts of people, I do think you need to focus them, help them develop something, help them apply something. I know that from my own misdeeds in the past in terms of coming up with too many ideas and not letting any of them stick and you're on to the next bright, shiny object before you've finished that. So, I do think there are some shadow characteristics in people that have this innate ability or innate way of looking at things, which you need to watch out for. The really interesting article, actually, I read a bit of preparation for this was a bit of research which was very scientific-based research, but it was almost sort of morbid. I think they labelled it as morbid curiosity. So, the idea that– I can't remember the study. I think they electrified some pencils or something. I'll have to look it up. But the idea you can be curious even if it hurts you, if you see what I mean. So, this idea of you can go too far with it. I don't know how that applies in a business perspective. But, yeah, there are definitely some areas to watch out for. And I would probably argue that not everybody, you know, if you've got 10 people in the team, you don't want a good balance of different aspects. So, having them all bouncing around with different ideas may be great, but you'll need to harness that at some point. 

Hannah Munro: 27:06 

There is a balance, isn't there? And there is a bit around building a curiosity mindset. And it'd be interesting to have a conversation with that within the team. But like you say, it's about channelling that curiosity and understanding that there are different levels of natural curiosity that are suited perhaps to different roles within the organization. So, like you say, data analytics, if they're processing data, not necessarily curiosity is an important skill, but if they're analysing data, actually it's a really valuable piece. But like you say, it's let's focus, what are we trying to achieve and channelling them down the right path? 

I can definitely see that being a challenge, but it's down self-awareness, isn't it? It's awareness of your team and their strengths as much as their weaknesses.  

Paul van der Walt: 27:57 

Yes, absolutely. 

Hannah Munro: 27:58 

And also your own self-awareness your own curiosity levels and you know like anything and I think there's an interesting piece between curiosity and ideas and you very much tie them together and I think they almost they work quite closely together but whether the two are intrinsically linked as in you can be highly curious but not necessarily the ideas when you just want to know what's happening versus the person who generates the ideas 

Paul van der Walt: 28:27 

I think that's a I had not thought about actually I think that's a very That's actually a very good point in terms of perhaps a natural, yeah, sort of natural curious person looking at patterns and data and trends but not necessarily yeah I hadn't thought about that that's actually quite interesting I mean you must have come across that sort of thing I guess in your in your work here and there as well 

Hannah Munro: 28:48 

yeah well I'm very much like yourself I'm an ideal person naturally curious and I do look for curiosity in consultants because I think it's something that as a consultant you need to do you need to be interested in the businesses why they do the things they do how they do you know all those you know those W's well a couple of W's and a H but it's 

Paul van der Walt: 29:08 

Yeah, I know. There's a W at the end of the H word, so, that's how I get away with it. 

Hannah Munro: 29:14 

Yeah, absolutely. But no, I'm exactly the same. But like you say, it's balancing the levels of curiosity because, you know, you have a set timeframe to deliver a project. And as much as you'd love to spend hours understanding how processes work, what's happening here, you have to make some sometimes quite challenging choices about where to focus. And that, I think, made an extreme important point is actually for those that are coming up through the ranks, teaching them how to prioritize and giving them the ability, you know, those soft skills around time management and focus is really important with a highly curious individual. You know, just from my experience working with, you know, junior and senior consultants. 

Paul van der Walt: 30:01 

No, I would agree. And I think, you know, I take a leaf out of my own experience and that I know I need to be at times sort of bolted down or challenged or you know in that in that more pragmatic sense to say okay you know what's the what's the implication which does lead into you know the kind of whole so,, what kind of side of things and I do and maybe that's you know maybe that's a good tip for people in But something I've learned over the years is you've got the why, but then you maybe do need to be thinking about the so,, what. So, okay, I've discovered this interesting thing, pattern, trend, whatever. But perhaps the next question you need to be asking yourself is so, what? What am I going to do with it? What action am I going to take with it? A boss of mine, you know, he It was very much into actionable insight, which was a bit of a buzzword, but it's the same sort of idea of, okay, you've gone off and done all this interesting analysis and there's pages of whatever, but let's bring it back to reality and ask that so,, what question. And I think that goes a long way. I think that's, what am I going to do with this? Am I going to tell somebody this? Am I going to take a piece of action? Am I going to make some advice? Am I going to put it into a proposal? Am I going to generate a table of options? That sort of thing, which I think brings it more into something tangible for other people to actually do something with. And I think if I look at what I've done in the past, that's probably what's helped me in the sense of if you're looking at different options and different analyses, et cetera. You know, for me, there's a couple of routes, you know, you can generate some, some scenarios. So, you know, option ABC, classic financial stuff about risks and opportunities and benefits. I think that can help. And then the other side of it, you know, can be, again, we're back to the scenario side of things. So, I do. Yeah, I think you're right, but there's also that. So, what, which brings a little bit more into reality and, 

Hannah Munro: 32:10 

Yeah, and I think there's almost two different ways to look at the curiosity, isn't there? There's one about the actual CFO themselves, a CFO being curious and what does that look like? And then there's also the point about looking for curiosity during recruitment because it's not a skill that is on HR's tick box when recruiting for finance, certainly. It's not something that you could identify from a CV. So,, it comes down to that, as we've talked about, today looking for it in all levels and you know what that means for you so,, if we look at that CFO level what if somebody say well I think I'm naturally curious what are some of the behaviours you would see in that CFO 

Paul van der Walt: 32:56 

oh gosh I think you'd probably see I think you would see a fair amount of questioning I think probably. You know, I certainly would expect that in terms of, you know, what is the outcome? How have you got there? What assumptions have you used? Okay, let's talk about these a minute. Okay, right. Let me understand if I flex this assumption, et cetera. What impact does that have? So, you know, sensitivity analysis, understanding the balance of risk. understanding how probable things are going to be as likely outcomes, that sort of thing. I think to build up an understanding of sensitivity and an understanding of risk and an understanding of where the two or three key drivers are and what impact they have. So, I think you're going to find that from a CFO point of view. I think you will find them to be naturally inquiring as a mindset. I think you might find them more inclined to ask the why and the what if and how might we do things. So, I think that's probably where you would be. And I think there's always an interesting– I come back to this Finitel survey where they sort of talked about CEO and CFO and the different roles. And it's an interesting overlap where you could probably– Is that CEOs kind of, okay, being curious and understanding the plan? Is it CFO? Is there a mix? Who's coming up with the ideas? Inevitably, you talk about the person who has to have traction to actually get things done. Is that typically this, is that the CFO role? Is that CEO role? Is that COO role? So, it's an interesting mix at that level about You can have a lot of people bouncing around with different ideas and who typically or traditionally might be seen as the person who achieves traction. I think arguably as often can be the CFO. Whereas the CEO, you know, you might typically have the ideas person. But those roles might be completely reversed. And I think as long as you've got that balance at the top and that self-awareness of what the team dynamics are within your kind of board or C-suite, I think that's probably the most important thing. 

Hannah Munro: 35:12 

and I guess if you're depending on which side of the fence you fall on finding your equal and opposite in in that partnership piece and 

Paul van der Walt: 35:22 

absolutely you know absolutely. 

Hannah Munro: 35:24 

and that that is critical isn't it and I can't remember 

Paul van der Walt: 35:26 

absolutely yeah 

Hannah Munro: 35:27 

I think in a very old podcast we talked about finding the right role for you and there's this assumption that it's about finding the right candidate but I'm a massive believer in finding the right the opposite side in that you figuring out what you want from an organization and you know and from you know certainly with a CFO role from that CEO and figuring out whether you're a good fit for them because otherwise you It's a recipe for disaster if that balance, like you say, isn't right in terms of... 

Paul van der Walt: 35:54 

No, I completely agree. I think that's something I've experienced for myself, and others have as well. And I think it's probably also being clear about, okay, this is me. This is Paul. This is what I bring to the table. This is the areas I operate in. I'm unapologetic about it. And... you know, in a nice way, it's like deal with it. So, but also the reality of, and I'm very open to this as well, is okay, fine. If that's not a good match with your CEO and adding in the right areas, well then, you know, that might not be the right relationship to be in and it might not be the ideal relationship you know, area to be in. So, which, you know, I think you need to be open to that. Um, whereas, you know, if you're obviously filling in some spots and some gaps, et cetera, uh, and that makes you a kind of good, good pairing, then that's absolutely fantastic. 

Hannah Munro: 36:50 

And, and one question for you, which I find interesting is curiosity, something that can be taught, or is it a natural ability in your, you know, in your opinion, I'm sure there's some studies on this and I must stick them out. 

Paul van der Walt: 37:01 

Oh, I'm sure there will be, I guess. Um, I think it's inbuilt. There you go. I was thinking about saying on the fence and saying, well, it's inbuilt, but it can always be developed, which I do actually also believe in. But I think fundamentally you've probably coming with that sort of mindset. Yeah. Yeah. No doubt we'll get shot down in flames, won't we? Or I will, whatever. But it'll be an interesting topic. I mean, I think you can teach tools and techniques, for sure. You know, regression analysis and, you know, all this sort of stuff, for sure. But I think it's like any job. If you're not fundamentally interested in that, you're not really going to want to do it. And you're not necessarily going to do it very well. So,... I do think whilst you can teach those tools, techniques and so, on, I think the attitude and the genuine desire is probably more inbuilt. 

Hannah Munro: 38:03 

I would say that some people are just naturally curious and want to know things. I would agree with that. Like you say, it's tools and techniques. I would also say that that person needs to have the room to be curious. I am a believer that some cultures stifle curiosity over political environments where ideas and you know interesting information isn't welcome you know which seems crazy but it does happen so,, I think there's also an onus on leadership to create an environment where curiosity is almost permitted and allowed and encouraged you know I think that's an interesting piece as well 

Paul van der Walt: 38:49 

I do and I you touch on a very interesting point about um I go back to some stuff I did before around the Arbinger Institute and training, but the fundamental difference between... They talk about two different mindsets, right? So, they talk about the mindset which is, I want to be right, therefore I must prove that I'm right. And the other mindset which is, I merely want to be useful. And I think that can be a difference. I've experienced those two different sides of things, and I do think... Maybe we'll get shot down. We'll get shot down for this. But I do think you can find leaders that are actually genuinely insecure. And we can go into that whole imposter syndrome kind of aspect of things. But leaders who probably are actually genuinely insecure and or just want to be right. And we can talk about narcissistic leadership and all that sort of stuff. But I do think in those environments, you're probably getting the, thou shalt not challenge my thinking. Whereas I think you can get another type of leadership, which is, I'm comfortable in my skin. I don't believe I've got all the right ideas, but I've got people around me that probably know it better than me. So, let's bring it on. And I think in those environments, you're probably more likely to people want to hear from other people. So, there are some distinctions. And so, some of it probably does come from a leadership point of view. 

Hannah Munro: 40:18 

But it is naturally, yeah, naturally embedded.  

Paul van der Walt: 40:21 

I think there's a natural element of it. And again, if you've got that clash of cultures, then, you know, that's something you also need to be aware of. 

Hannah Munro: 40:29 

Yeah. So, like we talk about, so, we talked about the importance, what is curiosity, the importance of it at all levels from CFO down to sort of the finance team. What are some things that people can do to promote curiosity within their teams? 

Paul van der Walt: 40:45 

Oh, yeah. There's probably quite a range of things, I think. I came across one study that talked about gamification, which was an interesting option. So, they actually set some little online games to promote and provoke curiosity amongst staff. So, that's an interesting one. There's probably, it goes back to culture, but okay, you as a leader in terms of influencing what you can is being open to being questioned and reinforcing employees when they ask good questions, open questions. You can even talk about training around questioning style. As a young auditor, we were trained about... I still remember it. It's amazing the mnemonics you learned. Oh, Lord. But with opening questions, open question, leading question. So, you can do training around questioning style and being aware of the influence of that and teaching people the art of asking a good question. I think you could probably look at team balance. So, I think if you are aware that you've got more or less curious people, you can mix that up in terms of project teams and things like that. I think that can help. I read somewhere about the puzzled look. So, if somebody is giving you a bit of a puzzled look, then you might want to inquire about that. And maybe highlighting curious leaders in your midst and perhaps asking them to participate. And then I think there's an element around trying to get people to let their passion shine through wherever that is, which isn't necessarily linked to that. But I think if you have got someone who's displaying that sort of curiosity to try not to stifle it, but as we said, I think to give it some focus. So, I think those are probably the areas for me that you can have a look at from a practical perspective. 

Hannah Munro: 42:52 

Yeah, some great tips there. And I would, you know, wholly endorse your concept around helping people find an area of interest or a passion, you know, even within their role, because it's amazing how much more interested. And I do think passion and curiosity are a bit like ideas. They're intrinsically tied together. When you have an interest in an area, I think you're naturally more curious as to hang on a second, you know, I think I thought I knew that, but why is that? So, I think there's a really, some really great suggestions there. So, well, thank you so, much, Paul. Literally. Oh, you're very welcome. The time has just raced by.  

Paul van der Walt: 43:35 

It has indeed. Yes. And my puppy is still asleep. So, 

Hannah Munro: 43:38 

we're 

Paul van der Walt: 43:39 

all blessed. We're all. 

Hannah Munro: 43:40 

good. It's all good. Yes. So, obviously, like I said, anyone that follows you already will know what I'm talking about, but you have some great posts. And if anyone wants to find out more about who you are and what you do what is the best place to sort of find you 

Paul van der Walt: 43:57 

I would probably say LinkedIn is going to be, you know, search my name. You'll probably hopefully find me at some point. And I'm always willing to connect or have a conversation from that point of view. You know, that's probably the easiest place to find me. I'll see you out there in the wide world. 

Hannah Munro: 44:15 

Yeah. 

Paul van der Walt: 44:16 

Maybe I'll see some people in real life as well at some point. 

Hannah Munro: 44:18 

Wouldn't that be lovely? I must admit, that is the one thing. I have to say though, I've met some really interesting people having not been limited to geographical but 

Paul van der Walt: 44:29 

yeah, I can imagine, it's yeah so, hit me up on LinkedIn if that's what they say. 

Hannah Munro: 44:38 

and for those that are interested I will post Paul's URL for his LinkedIn and some you know he's got some I can personally say I think he's got some great content so, thank you Paul for joining us on the show today thank you. 

Paul van der Walt: 44:51 

it's been really good thank you very much.