50. Hiring CFOs and the changing face of recruitment during COVID - with Phil Scott

50. Hiring CFOs and the changing face of recruitment during COVID - with Phil Scott, MD at FD Recruit

Hannah Munro 0:48  

Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. As usual, I am your host Hannah Munro and with me today is Phil Scott from FD Recruit. So, he is the founder of FD Recruit and we're going to be talking about how COVID has changed the landscape or not, as the case may be, and what is happening in the world of FD and CFO recruitment. So, welcome, Phil. It's fantastic to have you on the show. Thank you for joining us. 

Phil Scott: 1:38 

Thanks for having me. 

Hannah Munro : 1:40 

Wonderful. So, tell us a little bit about yourself. So, obviously, as we discussed before the podcast, living in Blackburn. So, before, how did you come to start FD Recruit? What's your story? 

Phil Scott: 1:51 

Where do we begin? We can start after 

Hannah Munro : 1:57 

school, we don't have to go back to 

Phil Scott: 1:59 

primary. So, I got a degree in accountancy and finance, took a gap year in travel that became a gap four years and went back into see a recruitment company and they said you know you'd You don't look like you want to go down the finance route. But I was sort of guilty that my parents had put me through the accountancy degree. So, I felt I needed to try and use it. And I got suggested accountancy recruitment. So, that's what I did. I worked for an employer. to start with and then after about 18 months well after 12 months we talked about maybe doing it on our own and then after 18 months we made that break and set up our own financial recruitment business so, that that sort of grew and my role within that grew where I was handling all the senior appointments. And then in 2013, we decided to sort of break that company into different pieces. And mine was rebranded to be FD Recruit, which I sort of took as the sole shareholder. 

Hannah Munro : 3:07 

Wonderful. So, that's a long time in finance recruitment, specifically within sort of FDs and the CFO. So, what trends have you seen over the years? 

Unknown: 3:19 

Yeah. 

Phil Scott: 3:19 

I think it's a lot on technology, as you'd imagine, has been the sort of major developments in the 20 years I've been doing it. And then just the role, really, the role moving from sort of back office, the sort of compliance to really sort of leader role. right-hand person to the CEO. I mean, that will have always been around in certain businesses, but that's more prevalent now in a lot more businesses where the CFO is the right-hand person. 

Hannah Munro : 3:53 

And have you seen any changes over the duration of the lockdowns and COVID in terms of what either employees or potential candidates are looking for versus what businesses are looking for? 

Phil Scott: 4:09 

Yeah, I mean, I should imagine it's sort of opened that door to remote working. I mean, the CFO role is, you know, it is a people thing. So, you're never going to remove that. But there is maybe a bit more of a hybrid working, which has opened the door to maybe people with a longer commute, maybe doing a couple of overnight stays, where a five-day-a-week position on site with distance was probably a non-event. If you think of the CFO 40 days, 50 to 60, they're going to be at the point where a lot of them will have families. So, there's that that comes into contention. But now they're quite happy to do two overnight stays, which can mean three days on site in the office, and they can get everything done there. And then the other two days away from this distraction where they can really sort of knuckle down on their desk and their role. 

Hannah Munro : 5:12 

So, you've seen a change in perhaps geography and where you're able to recruit from more than 

Phil Scott: 5:19 

anything? Yeah, bit by bit. I mean, of course, it only happens when that position becomes vacant in an organisation that they might review the current work in and maybe look at a further commuting distance. So, that probably opens it up to I call it sectorism that's always been around where people think well actually if we can open up the geographical boundaries but we're not as confined to who's available maybe we could be a bit more choosy and look for a certain skill set or a certain sector knowledge or an ownership structure knowledge so, yeah it's down to each business I mean I've got one position that I'm going out to see them next week and that's a sales environment and they really want someone who's in there on the sort of sales floor almost you know controlling the numbers and they will do the odd day remote working, but it's going to be four days in the office at least. So, it just depends on the organization. And again, a lot of the manufacturing businesses, I wouldn't say that as many of them have moved to remote working if they are single sites and the FD is really about being involved in the business and some of the wider operations. So, I would say if it's technology, absolutely. If it's professional services, yes. If it's a people business, but if it's a production business, less so, 

Hannah Munro : 6:47 

Yeah, so, very much different sectors are always taking a different trend and responding differently. To be very fair, I think that's fairly similar. We're seeing that when we're speaking to manufacturing businesses. It's not just the FD role. I think it's across the board. So, it'll be quite interesting to see how that shift changes. So, what other shifts have you seen over COVID in terms of recruitment? 

Phil Scott: 7:12 

Yeah, I mean, I would say going back to March, April last year, everything, the world shut down. You know, not just the UK, but nothing happened. Everyone's locked down. So, recruitment just stalled. But it didn't take too long to start picking up again. Those roles that were on the shelf came back in over the sort of late summer. And by October, there was a normality. I mean, this is the sort of second wave big recession that I've been involved in as a business owner in financial recruitment. And one thing you always need ahead of your finance function, whether the businesses are going like that or whether they're going like that, it doesn't matter what the economy is doing, you still need someone to lead that function. If the economy is a bit dicey, it's to keep control over the costs. If the if the business is growing, it's to still keep control over the cost while the business is growing. So, it's a similar skill set, and you still need someone in that position. So, we don't always see... you might see some consolidation of sites and maybe a couple of divisional FDs. One FD loses their role, or businesses could go to the wall. But with the support that was given this time, there wasn't as many businesses went to the wall as maybe in the 2008 recession. So, we haven't seen a massive influx onto the job market. And for us, a lot of the time, the assignments are search orientated. So, they're not always looking for the people sat at home. They are maybe looking for the people that are in work. So, whether the economy is great or depressed, a lot of those people are still in work. So, it's still the same process from our side. We're still knocking on the same doors. It's still the same FD population, whether they're in work or not in work, that we need to reach out to and talk to. So, I haven't seen a massive change from that angle or a big influx into the market. 

Hannah Munro : 9:09 

And there's a lot of talk at the moment of people rethinking their careers and what they're looking to do. Have you noticed, and I think there's a few terms around it, great exodus is the term I saw on LinkedIn this morning. But are you seeing any trends like that where people are looking for a shift, you know, for various different reasons? But have you noticed a pattern or a trend around any of that? 

Phil Scott: 9:37 

Absolutely. It's something I've kept an eye on since 2008. I mean, in 2008, I think every unemployed FD, of which I would say there was probably more back then than there were this time, because as I said before, the government support has kept a lot more businesses going. But every unemployed FD back in 2008 decided to become a part-time FD while they were weighing up, are they going to go back to full-time work? But if they couldn't find a full-time role, it was a case of, well, I need to keep myself busy Monday to Friday, so, if I can pick up the odd day here and there so, we did I did see that as a trend however um it's the thought of doing part-time roles maybe going down to a three four day a week and earning sort of similar if you operate through a limited company in terms of your net salary it's a great idea but actually getting your hand on that type of um roles if it's three or four clients you become The other two, three days you're not working, you're your own business developer just to fill those, you know, those chargeable days. So, a lot of the people, if they don't have the network, soon have to, they might try it, but then they give it up as a bad job. So, yes, of course, people are thinking about switching in career or switching how they might operate. But the reality isn't always as easy as what it may seem. It'd be great if you could just click your fingers and suddenly you've got three, four days working maybe a handful of clients. But it takes two years to get that off the ground. And not everybody's got two years of income to allow themselves to, or savings to allow themselves to get up to that mark. 

Hannah Munro : 11:20 

Yeah, I had an interesting conversation actually on the podcast a few episodes ago for anyone that's listening around the shift into part-time CFO. And it's not for everybody. It sounds great in principle, but it's almost a different skill set, isn't it? Like you say that business development and that ability to market yourself and to sell as well because you've got to sell your services. So, that's an interesting shift. I certainly see a lot more of them. But it's not an obvious answer and it's not necessarily the right answer. 

Phil Scott: 11:56 

for a lot 

Hannah Munro : 11:57 

of 

Phil Scott: 11:57 

people. Yeah, it's a lifestyle choice. I mean, if I had to continue down the accountancy route without a doubt, approaching late 40s into the 50s, that's something I would do without a doubt because, you know, being... finance people we are naturally frugal with our money so, you get into late 40s and maybe the kids are sort of older so, you haven't got that you know mortgage probably paid off if you if you're pretty smart so, you actually don't need much income once you get beyond that point unless you love the flash toys. So, it's quite easy then to maybe take that drop and go down the part-time route. Do you need five-day-a-week income? So, it depends on the individual. Some people still want to be involved in that sort of growth, M&A, exit, which is a full-time role. And some people maybe just think, well, actually, a little bit of time for me. And it depends. If there's a big event happening in your personal life, if you've had a friends of a similar age have taken ill health, then it makes you start to question. So, I think a lot of it, it's not always an economy choice, it's more a lifestyle choice and it probably more often than not hits you when you get to a certain age where you can see, maybe you think the finish line is closer to the start line, I don't know. 

Hannah Munro : 13:13 

Yeah, to be fair, I think as you get through the stages of your life, at every stage you're thinking and um assessing aren't you what is sort of your next stage and what you want in your 20s is totally different from what you want in your 40s so, um yeah that you know um but flash toys tends to be one of those wants you know that fancy car with the with the convertible so, that's always on the agenda for people so, so, that's an interesting piece though in terms of sort of um won't say more flexible working hours, but the concept of a reduced work week. You mentioned obviously part-time CFOs, but have you seen any increase in requests for maybe a role with one company, but for four days instead of five? Is that starting to come through at all? 

Phil Scott: 14:01 

We've always been open for that type of option. And I think certain businesses, if they're smart, if you're growing and maybe as you're going through sort of five, 10, 15 million? Do you need... Is there enough strategic work for somebody five days a week? And I always challenge that. A lot of the time, they don't want someone on a part-time basis because... they're trying to get them to sit at the table and they're going to give them a management incentive. So, you can't have the other sort of directors five days a week on the same reward scheme as someone who's on three days a week. So, sometimes that comes into play. But I do challenge if they are sort of five, 10 million, do you need a full-time FD? Because really what you're going to have to do is get your FD to be FD two, three days a week. And then what are they going to do with the other two, three days a week? Are they going to be an expensive finance manager, management accountant, or do you give them other functions to run? And it depends on the organization because a lot of the businesses we recruit for are sort of owner managed. So, you tend to have a couple of people that have set the business up. One is the product person, the other knows how to sell it. And then Everything else falls on the FD. So, the FD becomes finance and ops, everything back office, IT, HR, legal, compliance, sometimes health and safety. The FD ends up getting lumbered so, that the product person can carry on innovating, developing products, and the sales leader can make sure that they're getting the product out the door at a price point that they need to. So, it depends on the organization and what skill sets are in there to how they... might use an FD, whether if it's just a pure finance capacity, part-time, I would say it makes absolute sense. 

Hannah Munro : 15:51 

And are you getting a lot of requests from CFOs interested in that style of role, is in that length of role, or are people still wanting that five day a week? 

Phil Scott: 16:03 

bit of everything bit of everything really I mean people are open I mean if it's the right opportunity you can do it in four days I mean who wouldn't love to you know if you don't need the money who wouldn't love an extra day on the golf course or whatever. I don't even play golf. I'm just sort of throwing that out there. Is it generic? I was. 

Hannah Munro : 16:23 

going to say, that's a bit of stereotyping there, isn't it? FCFO on the golf course. 

Phil Scott: 16:29 

You never know. 

Hannah Munro : 16:30 

You've got a surfboard. 

Phil Scott: 16:32 

Well, why not? Or a holiday home in the sun that you have long weekends to, whatever it may be. Who wouldn't like that? And if you can afford it and you don't need the money Absolutely. I know what I'd be doing it, you know, if I was in that situation and it got offered to me. So, I mean, for the right opportunity, of course, you can, you know, people that are five days, I mean, you're only talking 20% of the time. So, you can still approach that market. So, some people come and say, I'm open for five days. Yeah. But as I say, if someone's available for five days, I'd still approach them if it was a four-day-a-week opportunity. But we have recruited a few four-day-a-week opportunities where a lot of the time it'll come where they've got, let's say, 70,000, 80,000 to spend. And I know that it's a 100K skill set that they're talking about. So, that's where I'll suggest and say... I can get you 80,000-pound people, but there's going to be a lot of compromises or, you know, you get someone who comes in four days a week and can they do that role? Because all they've got to do is delegate some of their low-end tasks internally, and then they'll be able to do it for four days. So, spend that 80,000 pounds, you know, pro rata so, that you get a hundred K candidate and some, some, get it some go for it and then some are just so, rigid in their structure but it just depends on the owner and you know what their thoughts are and who you're talking to 

Hannah Munro : 18:00 

yeah, and you obviously specialize in more owner-managed businesses or work with a lot of those owner-managed businesses what do you think is different about what owner-managed businesses are looking for versus um an alternative sort of legal structure um. 

Phil Scott: 18:19 

I think they're just looking for a lot of its chemistry, a lot of its personality, and a lot of it is an all-rounder. They're looking for the skills that they don't have. I'm not saying in a structure that's got more compliance or anything like that. They're probably more looking for ticking boxes. So, the technical becomes sometimes more important. I mean, we recruit for LLPs and... If it's law practices or even accountancy firms, sometimes they feel that they've already got quite a high-level intellect in the boardroom. So, sometimes they just want an FD to keep them compliant and safe and to count the numbers. So, there's not one case that is the same. Every assignment is totally different and it's looking at the personalities and looking at what they want. Sometimes they want people the same as them in terms of personality and skill set. Sometimes they want the opposite because they need someone who can challenge or complement the other skills that they've got. 

Hannah Munro : 19:26 

And you mentioned that sort of shift from typical sort of compliance and I guess more accounting focused. Are you, with the change of the role becoming more ops based, are you seeing candidates coming from other areas? Are they all coming from traditional finance backgrounds? 

Phil Scott: 19:43 

It's very rare that we would move someone from ops who's not come down the accounting route into a finance and ops role because you can't, suddenly go back and learn the accounting skills and do your accounting qualifications. Plus, that's the area of concern that if they've got a board and the CEO puts a non-qualified person in charge of the finances and anything goes untoward, then the book is going to stop with them. It's going to be their fault for not ensuring that they had someone qualified who's compliant and who's been checked and got that annual subscriptions. So, a lot of them weren't considered unqualified. So, moving someone from... It's different. I mean, you do see it in sort of maybe FS, and I don't... When I say FS, more sort of IFA or where... the finance role is more about driving the numbers of the business in the sales capacity. So, sometimes you might get it from there, but it's very rare that I would see a non-qualified in that sort of position. 

Hannah Munro : 20:54 

And do you see a lot of people coming out of practice or are they born and bred, always been in corporate, in business that are coming through the ranks? Are you seeing a mix? 

Phil Scott: 21:04 

Yeah, definitely a mix. And it comes down to the individual. So, Yeah, absolutely. I mean, obviously, to get into the top few accounts as he practices... the standard is high academically. So, you get some extremely intelligent people. But I was chatting to a CFO who was big four trained. And he said, Phil, there's nothing that separates me than my colleagues that I trained with apart from my interpersonal skills. He said, I've got colleagues that are still, you know, in the same practice doing technical roles. And quite frankly, they don't want my type of position. They're quite happy, you know, just crunching the numbers, doing the technical, but he said, to be fair, they're probably even technically stronger than me. You know, there's nothing separate, but it's just my ability to sort of be a communicator and a leader that means I can move out into industry and sort of climb into senior positions. 

Hannah Munro : 21:59 

Yeah, and I think that's the difference, isn't it? It's about personal choice. Some people have a natural talent for the interpersonal. Some people work hard to develop it, and some people just don't even want to approach it. So, I guess that's the key defining characteristic as to whether they move away from the technical side. 

Phil Scott: 22:14 

Absolutely. 

Hannah Munro : 22:16 

So, I guess, so, what are the shifts? I guess I'm going to ask you to put out your crystal ball. What shifts do you think you're going to see over the next year or two in terms of FT and CFO recruitment? 

Phil Scott: 22:31 

I mean, I think for us, the skill set is that sort of value add, it's that driver, that leader. We always get asked for that. Nobody ever calls us up and says, listen, we want to pay you a big recruitment fee to find us, you know, a sort of grey-haired bean counter story to use the stereotype. But somebody who is, you know, back office, not proactive, not the face of the business, we never get asked for that skill set because to be quite honest, you can bob an advert out in the local rag and get that yourself if you're flexible. It always is. They're looking for the for the leader that they can't just access themselves, you know, they, they say to us, listen, there's no way in a two, three, four-week shortlisting period, we can build a network that's taken you 20 years to build. It's impossible. It's, um, you know, whatever sector you're in, you can't go and do someone else's job and be an expert at it within three or four weeks. Um, so, we, we're always going to get that, um, skillset that's needed driving the business and, and, and being sort of, proactive. And I think for me, the people that champion the FD and CFO role are effective networkers. So, they don't have to know all the answers. They just need to know where to go and find the answers. And that comes down to the old adage of it's not what you know, it's who you know. So, it's having a good advisory network. That is critical. And you still see people that come to us now and they don't have that. And they've just been stuck in that one business for a long period of time. And it's really difficult to market them because, like you were saying, what is that skill set? Well, it's not that skill set. It's the proactive network that we get asked for. 

Hannah Munro : 24:23 

And in talking of networking and sort of taking that a step further, how important is personal brand when marketing? a candidate comes to you, either applying for a role or when you were looking for a role, how much does that factor into your decision whether to approach them or whether they get the job? 

Phil Scott: 24:41 

If I'm honest, it's got to affect it. So, if they're not a good communicator, I mean, when I meet them, it's almost like a mini-interview. So, I'm thinking, how they are with me is how they're going to be in front of a client. And ultimately, you've got a one-hour window to either impress that first five seconds or 10 seconds normally, but you've got a short window to impress them. So, when we interview, sometimes our interviews are quite short, but ultimately, it's like an elevator pitch. And when you're asked an interview question, you've got to answer that question concisely, straight to the point, and get your evidence across pretty quickly. So, we're always looking at that. I mean, it doesn't mean that if someone isn't a great communicator and you know the good for the role, we'll have heard of their reputation, we'll have been recommended them sometimes. So, it does mean when it's harder for us because, I mean, I had a conversation with a client the other day and I said, listen, I'm putting this candidate forward, I'm just going to be straight. He's not. the most charismatic interview, but I'm telling you, I've known him for a long time and he's really good at his job. So, if you're looking for, you know, a sort of party starter in your FD, CFO role, he am not the person, but hopefully you're looking, that's not what you're employing him for. You know, you can get an entertainer for the Christmas party privately. So,, you know, but I'm just trying to break that ice so, that when this person walks through the door and that expectation's already been set and it's already half been overcome so, that they can get in and they can give them a chance so, that they can prove their passion. And the passion doesn't have to come through personality. As long as they're passionate about the sector they're in and they can deliver that, then that's absolutely fine. But it's not always the skill set. We're talking about You know, finance people, not salespeople. So, it can be difficult. But yeah, of course, we're looking at that personality. But we're also thinking of the chemistry. If it's an owner managed business, can we see that person working with the owner? 

Hannah Munro : 26:54 

And from a, you know... just taking a step further from personality but more into sort of brand how much attention do you spend or how much you look at their personal individual brand their social networking their you know what they're doing there does that play a factor in who you choose to 

Phil Scott: 27:13 

approach um I mean we use LinkedIn extensively in recruitment like many other sectors. And I do sometimes question if somebody doesn't have a LinkedIn profile, does it say something about them? It could mean they're a very private person. Of course, not everyone. I mean, I'm not... big on Facebook to be honest because I spend all day on social media but on LinkedIn so, going home looking at who's checked in at a coffee shop I'm not as interested so, you know I mean I suppose I'm being hypocritical but you know with LinkedIn I think if you're a network worker then having a LinkedIn profile it's important and having connections because it just speeds things up so, if you are that networker if you have got a good network of advisors that can help you do that job then it speeds things up. LinkedIn is keeping in touch with people. You can send them a message straight away if they've moved companies. Whereas if you've got someone's work email, it's sort of like, well, actually they moved on. So, I do sort of sometimes question when people in that sort of role or looking for that role haven't got maybe a LinkedIn profile. It just, to me, it just doesn't mean they're as outwardly thinking as they feel that they are. 

Hannah Munro : 28:30 

And what about the quality of that profile? Are there any sort of things that you look out for as gotchas or things that when you see it on the profile, you go, oh, I'm not sure I want to approach that individual? 

Phil Scott: 28:48 

I wouldn't discriminate if they haven't got the best or complete LinkedIn profile at all. I just wouldn't because... They're busy people. So, if they've got time to make it all sing, all dancing, great. But a lot of them haven't. And we've got to be realistic about that. But of course, there's things that could push people further forward. If they've got a LinkedIn profile, you can see that they're networking. They've been on podcasts. They've been on this. They've been on that. So, they're taking time to promote their personal brand. They're doing that because they're a certain type of individual and that they are proactive and they are... that sort of innovative type of individual. And they've probably understood the importance of personal branding. So, straight away, you start to think this is a commercial individual. It doesn't mean that they are, but you start to think, yes, actually, maybe they've got that skill. But I wouldn't discriminate if someone hasn't got an All Singing, All Dancing LinkedIn profile. If they've got one, brilliant. It just means that they've opened the lines of communication. That's fine. But yeah, like I said, they're not going to be social media experts. 

Hannah Munro : 30:02 

No, and I think it's a really good call in that that social media profile can help them maybe step up the candidate list in terms of priority, especially if somebody is looking for a more commercially minded CFO. But it's also not a gate, you know, it's not an end all if it's not perfectly presented as such. So, I guess the other question I have for you around personal brand in particular is art. In your experience, are owners actually interested in the social brand of that CFO? Are they looking for somebody that has that presence and that cachet with investors, et cetera, when they're looking for a CFO? Does that play a factor in what owners themselves are looking? 

Phil Scott: 30:45 

for? It can do. It can do. I mean, I was talking about it on a forum the other day about black book. So, sometimes, you know, it's a bit of a myth, but it's just a name drop sometimes. You might not even know them, but just actually even the fact that you could say, yeah, I know it's such and such a firm. And whether you know them or not, the fact that actually you've opened your mind and that you know who the firms are that you ought to know, I think it does play a part. So, in an interview, if they're looking at raising investments, then being able to name drop. I mean, like I say, you could just research the night before of who the managing partners at all the key firms are. But that's going to give the person confidence and interview that you've got that ability and have got that network. 

Hannah Munro : 31:39 

Yeah, and talking of networks, you mentioned, obviously, a network of advisors is, you know, something that you look for in a good CFO. What kind of advisors do you, you know, you look for? How do you assess the quality of that 

Phil Scott: 31:52 

network? I mean, going to the saying, you know, you judge people by the company they keep. So, if you know that they know the key advisors, and the key advisors depends on who... what the size of business the network they're in. So, whether it's audit partners, whether it's tax advisors, whether it's corporate financiers, whether it's private equity, whether it's relationship directors at banks, invoice finance, it's just having a network of people that you can call upon, NEDs, anything. If you think of the problems that a CEO will encounter, in different types of businesses, having that network. So, if you're an international CFO, then of course you need advisors and a network of advisors, big accounts of firms that have got overseas offices so, that if you're going into a new jurisdiction, you can quickly get to grips with all the compliance issues and trading issues of venturing into a certain territory. So, it's just having that ability, whereas... going to the opposite end of the spectrum a finance director CFO who's been in one business for the last 12 years it's only traded UK they've only ever dealt with one relationship manager at the local bank and maybe one audit partner at the local accountancy practice that's not enough you're not suddenly going to go from a UK trading operation to a global CFO role it's never going to happen so, it's looking at the next role that you want and making sure that you've got the skills to get that next role and the network. 

Hannah Munro : 33:39 

And I think that's a great suggestion, positioning yourself for the job you want rather than necessarily the job that you have. So, for those that are perhaps looking or considering their next shift, what advice would you give them so, that they can stand out or also get noticed as well? 

Phil Scott: 34:03 

Yeah, I mean, I keep saying about the network, which is important because... A lot of the time, when you're neck and neck down to the last two candidates, if you can pull that personal card, so, if you knew the audit partner, if you'd worked, the firm that you're going, if you know who their audit partner is and you happen to know that, and then you come down to say, I've heard of actually this CFO and he has a good reputation, that can be the deciding factor. But I think way before you get to that, And it's the same advice I give, I've done talks with, newly qualified accountants it's the same advice I give to anyone is every step of your career every year your CV has got to have grown from the previous year so, you get to the whether you evaluate yourself January to December you get to December and have you achieved anything if you've put your feet up your feet up at any point then you've missed a year and you're basically a year behind you know the people that are in the same graduating year as yourself so, you've just got to make sure you're evolving. So, again, looking at the skills that you're going to need and making sure that you're always putting yourself out there. And I think I see a few people where their career stutters and it usually times when kids come along and they sort of you know they coast for two or three years and they get left behind and before long if they then get put onto the market and they then take a sideways move as soon as you've taken two or three sideways moves that's where you finish that's where you end up in terms of climbing and developing so, it's just making sure and I think the best thing anyone could ever do is actually always be on the job market so, I'm not saying that you've got to job hop every sort of three months I just mean that probably a year or two before you're ready for that next step. Be available for that next step. So, if you're wanting to get a better and bigger role, you've got to always be available for that because you can't just suddenly say, do you know what? I'm on the market. People come to me and say, how long is it going to take? And I say, oh, it could take 12 months. They can't believe it, what I'm saying. 12 months to get a role. And I said... That's because I can get you a job in less time, but it'll be a sideways move or a backwards move. If you want something that's really going to enhance and be an improvement to what you want, you've got to be patient. You've got to be prepared to turn down job offers that are just... just equivalent, you know, that anyone can sell the sizzle, but actually when you sort of distil it down, is it really a sideways move? And you've got to be always planning ahead. You can't just suddenly say, well, I'll finish this project and then I'll go on. I expect the jobs to come flooding to me because it doesn't happen. Not if you're trying to progress because everyone wants the top jobs. 

Hannah Munro : 36:57 

Absolutely. And I think that's a great tip. So, trying to think at least 12 months ahead of where you want to be. and starting to build your skill set around that. Well, thank you so, much, Phil. This has been really interesting and I'm hoping our listeners have taken a lot away from today. So, if they want to learn more about yourself and the team at FD Recruit, where's the best place to find you 

Phil Scott: 37:19 

guys? Yeah, LinkedIn's always a good way or the website, fdrecruit.co.uk. But yeah, more than happy if anyone wants to reach out to connect on LinkedIn, then I'm on there. Nearly daily. So, yeah, I won't be too far away. That's where to find you. Absolutely. 

Hannah Munro : 37:40 

Brilliant. Well, thank you so, much. For those that are listening that would like to connect with Phil, we'll add obviously the link to the website and his LinkedIn profile into the show notes. And thanks again, Phil. I think there's some great takeaways and that piece about thinking 12 months ahead is a really good shout, especially if you want that next step up. So, thank. 

Phil Scott: 38:00 

you. Great. Thanks, Hannah. Thanks, everyone.