37. Advance your finance career despite COVID-19 uncertainty - with Rhymer Rigby

37. Advance your finance career despite COVID-19 uncertainty - with Rhymer Rigby

Hannah Munro: 0:47 

So, hello everybody and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. With me today is Reimer Rigby, columnist and regular writer for the Financial Times and author of two books including The Careerist and 28 Exceptional Business Thinkers. So, welcome Reimer, wonderful to have you on the show and thank you for joining us. 

Rhymer Rigby: 1:08 

Thank you for having me on. 

Hannah Munro: 1:09 

Brilliant. So, tell us a little bit about how you got into writing about careers and development. What was your journey into that role? 

Rhymer Rigby: 1:19 

Many, many, many years ago, I started out at Haymarket as a business journalist. I don't know if I was necessarily that interested in business, but I wanted a job in journalism. And, you know, we all have to start somewhere. I have a feeling on the same week; I actually may have applied for a job at somewhere like Smash Hits. So, you know, it could have gone another way. But anyway, I'm on management today, not Smash Hits. And, yeah, you know, I sort of went from there. to writing for a dot-com magazine, which was a lot of fun. I then went freelance, and I've done a lot of stuff for the FT. The career stuff came particularly out of writing a careers column for the FT, which I don't actually do anymore as it ended, but did for a number of years. And it was essentially a careers advice column, which was then followed by a sort of working smarter column. And yeah, you know, and then the careers column was turned into a book. So, yeah, and I've continued to write about careers. I write about careers for an American magazine now. And so, yeah, I've basically given. quite a lot of thought to how one gets ahead in the workplace and the sort of psychology of workplaces and just generally written about working careers for probably decades now. 

Hannah Munro: 2:42 

And so, you talk about it being decades that you've been writing about careers and getting ahead. What has changed in those few years? Have you seen anything change or is it the same scenario that it was all that time ago? 

Rhymer Rigby: 2:56 

I think in some ways it's quite, you know, there are, you know, everything is the same and a lot of things have changed. I mean, I guess in terms of how we work, you know, probably the internet has been the single biggest thing. You know, just about when I started, email was just coming in. That is how old I am. And, you know, the idea that I could be video conferencing someone from home was, you know, sort of almost science fiction in the mid-90s when I started working and when people were still mailing articles in on floppy disks. Imagine that. I 

Hannah Munro: 3:34 

still remember those, to be fair. I had to wave that in front of one of our team and say, do you know what this is? It's 

Rhymer Rigby: 3:42 

the save icon. So, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, the sort of digital change. And then I suppose more recently, the other thing that's changed is that you really can work anywhere, not for all jobs, but for a lot of jobs. I think, you know, having worked from home for probably since 2002, back then my job was one of the very few that you really could do remotely. Yeah. And then sort of around maybe 2010, 2012, I became aware that a lot of people in other kind of professional jobs were suddenly working from coffee shops. And I think there were a number of drivers behind that, some technological, some cultural. And that, I think, perhaps the sort of distribution of work is perhaps something that has also changed. 

Hannah Munro: 4:36 

And so, the principles, so, when you talk about the hundred things that people can do to get ahead in work, don't worry, I'm not going to ask you to recite all these hundred things off the top of your head. But what of those principles that you know that were there sort of when you first wrote that book, how many of those still apply today? 

Rhymer Rigby: 4:58 

Oh, I think a lot of them do. I mean, you know, networking is a good example. I mean, you still have to network, you know, it's still a lot of, you know, opportunities are brought to you by your network. It's perhaps got easier to do. Certainly, keeping in touch with people is massively easier via things like LinkedIn. But if you want to make quality connections, you probably still have to spend time with people. I mean, you know, arguably less so, over the last year. But, you know, still people you have worked with and, you know, working with a variety of people in a variety of organizations and, you know, making those contacts is one of the most important ways of getting ahead. So, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, that's a good example of something that has changed, but is also essentially the same and probably in some ways is you know, the same as it was 500 years ago. You know, having a sort of network of people is a huge way of getting ahead, possibly at sort of courts in Elizabethan England. 

Hannah Munro: 6:05 

Absolutely. And in terms of those networks, when you talk about networking, is that peer networking? Is that networking with other individuals in a sort of a similar role? Is that within the organization? Or does it encompass lots of different elements? 

Rhymer Rigby: 6:22 

I think networking is, yeah, absolutely lots of different elements. I mean, yes, of course, you network with people. You network naturally with the person who sits at the desk next to you, or you will when you're back in the office sitting at a desk next to you. next to you, but by doing this interview, you will now know me and who knows, perhaps in three years' time, you might ask me for a favour, or I might ask you for a favour. And hopefully, we will remember each other in a positive way. But I guess this is actually one of the great advantages of being in the office is that you bump into people who are not immediately to do with whatever task you happen to be doing. And there's this sort of serendipitous meetings in corridors. And yeah, you will often meet people who you just kind of like, who will be somewhere else in the organization, but perhaps you will also bring opportunities your way. And I think this is a huge thing for the office. That's very, very hard to replicate remotely. And it's particularly hard for younger people because someone my age has done a lot of networking. So, I have a lot of what is called social capital built up. I have a network of dozens and dozens of people I've worked with. But if I'm 25, I don't. And that is why, you know, for some reason, you know, going back to the office might actually be more of an advantage for younger people than it is for older people. 

Hannah Munro: 7:58 

And I guess that's the interesting shift, isn't it? You know, is there anything that those that are perhaps in that younger generation can do to replicate or create that networking space? event from home, or is it literally they just need to get back into the office as quickly as they can? 

Rhymer Rigby: 8:17 

I think you can, particularly, I mean, we've seen quite a lot of people basically replicating networking at home and you know the classic is uh I'm on a zoom meeting it's incredibly boring and I'm actually whatsapping someone slightly out of sight of the camera and you have a sort of batch going on a meeting with someone going oh my god this is so, boring will he ever shut up um But I think what is quite hard and what's actually very hard too, and that's actually, I suppose that's good in some ways because, you know, if you have someone who is a friend, you're sharing that sort of informal intelligence, you know, gossiping a bit. But what's really difficult to replicate is, number one, is meeting people for no good reason. Because If I'm going to email you or call you, there's a hurdle I have to clear. There has to be some reason for me to call you. Whereas if I bump into you in the corridor, we might just start chatting. And that is very, very difficult to replicate, I think. And also, meeting new people is much, much harder. So, yeah, you can do some things. 

Hannah Munro: 9:36 

And do you think the onus falls on the team managers and the team leaders to be aware of this and find opportunities to help perhaps their junior staff find those individuals and create opportunities to network and to build relationships? 

Rhymer Rigby: 9:52 

Yes, although I mean, I guess some of it is how much you regard this as a temporary situation. and how much you regard it as the new normal. If perhaps you expect everyone to be back in the office in six months, you might think, well, why bother? If, however, you expect half the team to be working from home, then perhaps, yes, the onus on you is to do that a little. 

Hannah Munro: 10:15 

So, I guess, so, apart from networking, which is obviously a key element, is there any other factors in terms of getting ahead that have been affected by COVID in particular? 

Rhymer Rigby: 10:29 

I guess just the one interesting thing I think is how technology has been taken up and people have sort of changed their roles around technology. I mean, you've seen this, you know, meetings are very different. And the classic was, you know, the sort of person who rather liked the sound of their own voice and dominated meetings. And I think that is rather harder to do on Zoom. And perhaps that has been, you know, Zoom in some ways or whatever teams or whatever it is you use has been somewhat better for people who are, you know, perhaps a little more, a little more retiring and a little less likely to sort of confidently put themselves forward. I'm sure you are thinking of men here and I'm thinking of men too when I say it. You know, the confident bloke who will not shut up despite having nothing valuable to say. But yeah, so, yes, I think it has changed. It's perhaps made; in some jobs I think it's made people's contributions more visible. which is good if you are sort of measured perhaps a bit more on the work you do. That said, I mean, I think Zoom meetings are pretty difficult. I don't think they're a great substitute for being in a room with people. And actually, I think the worst of all worlds is when you have four people in a room and four people on Zoom, because then the people on Zoom really are second-class citizens. They can't read the body language. They can't sort of pick up on the little verbal stuff and sort of someone rolling their eyes or whatever. It's much harder to do. And I'm not a fan of mixed meetings. I think they're rather dysfunctional. 

Hannah Munro: 12:22 

Yeah, it does tend to be dominating. The audio quality as well sometimes with mixed meetings can be quite challenging, can't it? 

Rhymer Rigby: 12:30 

Yeah, and Zoom calls are exhausting. You don't make proper eye contact. You're often looking at yourself in the corner, so, you're quite self-conscious. There's also, I remember speaking to a psychologist who said you're sort of looking at You're almost up in someone's face in a ready-to-fight position, which is quite, you know, it's almost slightly aggressive, you know, having someone up in your face like that. And it tires you out. Yes, I don't think they're brilliant. And also, people use them when phone calls are just as good. It's sort of, why would I want to do a video call when I could have a five-minute chat on the phone? It's really weird. 

Hannah Munro: 13:16 

That is. That 

Rhymer Rigby: 13:18 

is not the reason for this, by the 

Hannah Munro: 13:23 

way. No. For those listening, we are actually on video at the same time as we're speaking, to be fair. 

Unknown: 13:28 

Yeah. 

Hannah Munro: 13:30 

So, I guess there is an interesting concept, isn't there, about when we have the opportunity to go back to work and people have more options, what that means in terms of managing remote meetings and how to structure that well. Because I guess that can be quite a challenge because certainly a lot of the conversations that I'm having with finance teams is that actually this is an opportunity for flex. So, because all of the systems are shifting into the cloud and access remotely, that's something that a lot more people are looking to pick up. So, how can one manage a remote team effectively in those scenarios where your team is split in between an office and working from home? 

Rhymer Rigby: 14:17 

I mean, I guess I think the ideal thing is probably that you are... I know a lot of people would love to work from home forever, five days a week, but I actually think... The ideal thing is probably being in the office at least two days a week, maybe three. Because I think you maintain a connectivity and a visibility, particularly if you want to get ahead, that is impossible to maintain if you are remote, unless your company is majority remote. If you're talking about a standard company where... Most of the people are in the office some of the time. I think if you want to get ahead, you probably need to be in the office some of the time. Managers absolutely should do everything to ensure that people who are more remote get opportunities brought to them. But being realistic, I think If a sort of mostly remote person is up against a mostly present person, the mostly present person is probably likelier to get the promotion. And that's kind of just the way things are. Unless, as I say, it's a company where 85% of the workforce is remote, in which case it's a completely different kettle of fish. 

Hannah Munro: 15:40 

Because there is something to be said, isn't there, for the relationships driving decisions. As much as you like to be impartial, if you spend time with somebody in an office day to day and you see them regularly, like you say, you chat by, well, in our place, it's the kettle, it's not the water cooler. But if you're spending that time with an individual, then there is no comparison to meeting somebody face to face in that scenario. 

Unknown: 16:09 

Yeah. 

Rhymer Rigby: 16:09 

No, I mean, if you're my boss and I'm sitting five metres from you, if I have something to ask you, I just go to you and ask you. Or if something occurs to me that you need to speak to me about, you just come and talk to me, and our relationship is better for it. And I'm probably more effective and productive for it, I think, certainly in your eyes, simply because I... So, you don't have to go through the effort of picking up the phone and then possibly leaving a message and all that stuff. I am a more effective worker. And as I say, I think it's really good for me probably to be at home maybe a couple of days a week. And that means I can do things like writing reports, the kind of things that require a lot of concentration and are effectively almost piecework, work really well remotely. But I think a lot of teams-based work is more effective when the team is together. 

Hannah Munro: 17:14 

Absolutely. And I guess the nice thing about the flexible work, and it gives you that balance between, like you say, the piecework or the concentration-focused work and the option to work and communicate. So, it's quite interesting. I was literally talking to Nikki Heim, a CFO here, last week about one of the interesting topics she raised is that one of the nice things about covid is it it's raised awareness that people don't always work nine to five so, mum's coming back into work um that their work has been over covid more visible because people are watching for the output rather than the time spent in the office um do you do you think that's going to do you know in your opinion because we I don't think any of us has a crystal ball but what do you think about the scenario of going back into your office do you think majority of businesses are going to go back to the way things were or do you think that's going to be a shift in how things are going to work moving forwards 

Rhymer Rigby: 18:17 

my uh my dreadfully evasive answer is I think the scenario will please neither the work from home utopians nor the get back to work crowd. And in that respect, it will probably be a reasonable compromise. I think what's quite cool is it's made, certainly industries that had terrible presenteeism, law springs to mind, it has made people aware that a lot of those jobs actually can be done quite effectively remotely. You know, there are whole industries where the culture is one of you have to be in the office. And I think it's been really, really positive there. I also think it's great for people to maybe work a couple of days at home, you know, because it means they can, you know, they don't have a commute on those days. They have more time with their families. They're happier. They're more chilled out. And, you know, and they can spend more time with their families. They can get personal stuff done. And it just, yeah, it definitely makes them more efficient. But do I think working from home all the time works for everyone? Probably not, because I just, especially Teams-based work, I think it's quite tough. I mean, I always think of my own, what I do, which is basically writing stuff. And the reason it's one of the few jobs that's been very amenable to working from home, you know, before even really the internet, is because you have a piece of output that I can be judged 100% on. But most jobs aren't like that. You know, everyone I know who's, I know I've got a friend who lives in Spain and again has done for over 10 years, but he's a copywriter. So, you know, he has literally judged on what he writes. But it's not a model for work. It's not a model that really works that well for teams. That is five days a week. 52 weeks a year from home. 

Hannah Munro: 20:25 

And I think that's a challenge. It's not actually the fact that work's being done from home. It's the how do you measure the output of an individual and the productivity I think has always been the challenge for a lot of companies in terms of actually figuring out are they doing well at their job? Are they doing what they're supposed to be doing? And I guess that's quite challenging to do. in terms of, you know, with a remote team anyway, unless it's exactly as you said, it's piece-based work with a clear outcome. 

Rhymer Rigby: 20:57 

Yeah. I mean, you know, how, I mean, I guess the, you know, I think we are getting somewhat better at measuring output in a sort of techie way, although we're a long way from really being there. But I mean, how do you measure, you know, you have these people who sort of form social glue in teams and how do you measure the value of, someone who's a great person to have around and just everyone seems to work better when they're there and we kind of all know people like that and that's impossible to measure um or you know it's impossible for that value to be brought to a remote situation or very difficult to it I think 

Hannah Munro: 21:37 

I think that's a really interesting point because there is also a point about as managers, you're You can see things before they're happening if you're in the office. You know, you can see things developing. You can sense when somebody is having a good day, a bad day, et cetera. And that becomes so, much more challenging when, you know, when you're working remotely. So, how can we, you know, combat that in that era of flexible working? Is it, you know, is it just regular check-ins? You know, what sort of strategies are being talked about to manage it? 

Rhymer Rigby: 22:12 

I think, yeah, regular check-ins are one way. I mean, again, I think if you are working, you know, three days a week in the office, it's probably okay. And it sort of only becomes a real issue if you are remote permanently, where, you know, you don't know that, say, two members of your team absolutely hate each other's guts, whereas if they were sitting next to each other, it would be completely apparent to you. So, yeah, I think, you know, again, it's the argument for flexible working rather than fully remote working. But I do say some companies are going to try fully remote working. And it will be really interesting to see, you know, how they make it work and if they can make it work. I don't know if perhaps they can, but, you know, again, it would be interesting to see how they compare to companies which are, operating a more sort of mixed model. And then I think you get into all sorts of interesting things like, I think we may have sort of alluded to this earlier, but if I have a London waiting in my salary and I decide I want to move to Northumberland, maybe I shouldn't get that London waiting anymore. If I don't get the London waiting in Northumberland, is my sort of dream of being a rich person in Northumberland as great as I thought it would be? 

Hannah Munro: 23:38 

That's an interesting point, isn't it? Because salaries, they really do change from sort of area to area. So, you know, how do people, how do bosses know what the average wage is for that individual? 

Rhymer Rigby: 23:55 

Yeah, I mean, I think I have a feeling that Mark Zuckerberg said something like this about Facebook. He said, you know, I will offer everyone the opportunity, and this was probably about a year ago perhaps, I will offer everyone the opportunity to work remotely. But at some point, your salary is going to be adjusted so, that, you know, if you're working up the coast, I think it's Eureka in California, which is a pretty cheap town, you're not paid a San Francisco salary. And I don't, you know, is that reasonable? I don't know. I mean, a lot of people would say, well, you know, it's the work I do. I should be paid the same. But then a lot of other people would say, if you started a company in a cheap town in Northern California, you wouldn't be paying these San Francisco salaries in the first place. I can see it both ways and I think it's quite interesting. I rather suspect that a lot of companies will be saying, if you want to live in the Orkney Islands, great. but you're not as functional for me as someone who lives near our headquarters in Reading because you can't attend meetings easily and your cost of living is lower, and your salary will reflect that. And yeah, I could sort of see perhaps the argument for it. I mean, I think what's quite interesting is the reason that this hasn't really been an issue until now is because although quite a lot of people have done a bit of work from home, the number of people who've really worked from home full-time or worked from home hundreds of miles from the corporate base has actually been really low until COVID. So, you know, it was a small percentage. I can't remember. I think it might have been about three or five percent of the workforce. So, companies didn't really have to think about it, but now they will. 

Hannah Munro: 25:56 

I think there's an interesting piece in that how that will play in the wider economy as well, because we talk in the UK about the North and South Divide and about how a lot of the jobs and the wealth is concentrated in London. It could be quite interesting to understand if that shift in terms of salaries and remote working actually starts to you know, divide, you know, spread the wealth a bit more across the wider UK and whether that has an impact in terms of where people choose to live. And I guess it depends on the policies, doesn't it, that employers put forwards in that, you know, if you are living in London, it's a London way too, but what if you live in the surrounding areas in Surrey, et cetera, versus where, you know, where I live, it's the glorious North Wales. You know, what would that mean in terms, you know, how does that compare? And is it that individual's choice as to where they sit? or is that something that the business needs to take into account? 

Rhymer Rigby: 26:56 

Yeah, no, I think it's really interesting, and it's sort of all to play for at the moment. And there's also the whole thing about commuting, the time involved in commuting, the cost involved in commuting. I was reading quite an interesting piece in the paper F2 written by a guy who lives in New York. And, you know, he said this is very much up in the air at the moment. And he said eventually, like all revolutions, it will be crushed or co-opted. But commuters have a bit of power at the moment, and they should exercise it. 

Hannah Munro: 27:35 

Yeah, that's an interesting, I am certainly when I've, because I obviously work doing what we do, we work with a lot of London based companies. And it's quite interesting to hear their thoughts on going back to commuting in on the tube and public transport. And there is a general dismay about having to get back into those crowded trains and, you know, that 45 minutes to an hour commute. shift into to London in the morning that that's not something people I don't think are excited about getting back into to be fair. 

Rhymer Rigby: 28:06 

yeah no it isn't interesting but then would but then are I guess also the question is also sort of you know and yes you're right you could particularly if you're working from home you might say well I'm going to live in Hitchin in Hertfordshire where I can afford a reasonable size house for the price of a sort of flat in Hackney um and have some work from home space. But I guess the other question is, is living in Hitchin the same as living in Hackney? Having lived in both, I would argue that no. There are other reasons, clearly, to live in London, with things reopened, like restaurants and culture and all that type of stuff. So, you have people perhaps clustering in cities you know, maybe for more the cultural opportunities than the, than the employment ones, which is certainly a very interesting, um, you know, you live in Hackney because it's cool, not because it's close to you, not because, you know, you can cycle to your job in 20 minutes, um, which I think is, is quite interesting as well. Um, and how, you know, it's potential to, yeah, like you say, potentially remake cities or, although again, perhaps not, not as much as we think. Um, London's 

Hannah Munro: 29:27 

an interesting one because there's a lot of office space, isn't there, in London? So, it might be interesting to understand whether there could be more of a residential vibe in London and those finance centres. Because if you think about Canary Wharf, it's dead after, you know, sort of... what depends on when Friday night drinks finish, but after a certain time. So, it might be quite interesting to understand whether London and cities will go back to that, have more of a residential feel rather than just being a work environment. 

Rhymer Rigby: 30:00 

Yeah, I think you could potentially see, I don't know how much, but some amounts of office space, particularly, as you say, areas like the Square Mile and Canary Wharf turned back into residential space or Canary Wharf turned into residential space in the first place? I don't know. Is Canary Wharf a compelling place to live without as much banking in it? It could be reinvented. Yeah, no, it's a very interesting question. And then actually going back to what you were saying about... about getting ahead. This has just made me randomly think about this. I think you might wind up with companies who rather cynically say, yes, all employees are equal, but if you really want to get ahead, you have to join. You are expected to be in at least three days a week. And if not, you wind up on some sort of slow track where you're always told that you have the same opportunities as people who are. you know, who are in regularly, but you don't really. And, you know, we see companies do this in any number of ways already. So, I think that's another possibility. I think particularly in some industries, you will get to a critical mass where everybody who really wants, you know, everybody who is very ambitious is in the office. And then I think, you know, for most people, it might become rather impossible not to be in the office. I'm offering no judgment on it's probably not a good thing, but, you know, this sort of work is not a democracy. There's a 

Hannah Munro: 31:48 

realism, isn't there? 

Rhymer Rigby: 31:49 

Exactly. You know, you have to be, you know, realistic about how companies operate, particularly companies with a sort of get-ahead culture. 

Hannah Munro: 31:58 

And for those that are sort of listening to this podcast and thinking, gosh, you know, that's one, you know, networking, I need to be in the office or make myself known, potentially build those relationships. What else, you know, should those listeners be thinking about if they're looking to step up that finance ladder to take the next step into the next level of role? What advice would you give them that they should be thinking about, particularly in this, you know, this current climate and current scenario? I 

Rhymer Rigby: 32:27 

think in the current, climate one thing that's quite interesting is sort of thinking about how you make yourself visible um and I think we have seen quite a few people who you know typically on social media is a really good example you know have in fact lawyers do this incredibly well but I dare say there are people in finance who do it well but you know who sort of almost become better known for their sort of social media profile than they do for whatever it is they do as a job. And that's probably a sort of slightly extreme example where you become the great commentator on Brexit or whatever because you have, you know, there's David Alan Green who did that and also sort of the secret barrister and some doctors do it as well. So, I think, you know, there have been a number of sort of non-physical ways of really getting your name known. And also, you know, sort of contributing to blogs, podcasts, you know, publishing stuff on LinkedIn. Just, you know, you sort of have to get your face around typically using digital channels at the moment. And I think, yeah, I think the good thing is it's quite egalitarian. And, you know, if you have a bit of confidence, it's quite easy to do, I think. You know, even if you are... in the Orkneys or wherever it is. 

Hannah Munro: 33:57 

No, absolutely. And for those that are listening and are interested in exploring the development, because I do think it's a piece where those in finance don't normally think as much about their personal brand as potentially they 

Rhymer Rigby: 34:09 

could. No, I don't think they do. And they may also be, some of them are somewhat restricted, aren't they, because of regulations and stuff. But I think there are. There are plenty who can. But yes, I think finance has been quite sort of hierarchical and structured. And you sort of get ahead almost as a function of doing the job. But yeah, you're right. I think given if you can't sort of network with important people in the office, you have to find other ways of doing it. And perhaps that is on social media or something like that. Become the secret accountant. I love. 

Hannah Munro: 34:52 

that, the secret accountant. 

Rhymer Rigby: 34:55 

Or the hidden lefty or something like that. On the cover of D. 

Hannah Munro: 35:01 

There you go. But no, there's some great... I won't comment on your choice of nomenclature and titles there, Rhyma. But there's definitely a lot to be said for personal brands. So, for anyone that is like interested in exploring that more, just as a note, we did a great podcast. I think it was quite... Quite a few months ago, I think it's about six months ago with Amelia from Clouds. So, if you are listening and you're interested in exploring personal brand, she's got some great tips for getting that started, particularly with LinkedIn, because you're 100% right, Roma, it's a big piece. And it's one that I think finance, especially with the shift in their roles from, you know, what's the word, from data entry into data analyst, you know, that shift in that role gives you way more opportunity. And it's much more advantageous to be seen across the company and positioning yourself in that way as well. So, that's great. What else? What other tips do you have for our listeners in terms of getting ahead? 

Rhymer Rigby: 36:04 

Well, I was actually just thinking when you spoke about a shift there, you know, we've had one huge shift, which of course was, you know, everybody sort of going home in the space of about three weeks. And we're going to have another huge shift, which is going to be people going back to work. And just, you know, as they say, never waste a crisis. I mean, it's not quite a crisis, but chaos is when moments of huge change are often where there are big opportunities. And, you know, for goodness sake, put yourself forward for things. If there's something you want to do, often, you know, if you have sort of 5,000 people returning to your office, there's going to be a lot of chaos and people are just going to say, we need someone to do X, right? So, put yourself forward and make yourself visible, whether it's digitally or perhaps physically, if people are really starting to go back. And so, there will be a lot of opportunities while things settle down. And I think we've seen this a lot with digital disruption. Whenever there is disruption of any kind, there are opportunities. And I suspect the return to work will be one of these opportunities. where, you know, find something no one else is doing, make yourself useful and do it. And, you know, just a chance to sort of almost kind of be a bit of a pioneer and stake out your claim on something that has opened up. As I say, just because 5,000 people have gone back to an office, there's going to be opportunities there. And not everyone will be going back, and not everyone will be going back to the same roles. So, again, you know, it's all going to be very fluid for a while. And I think, yeah, you know, be alert to opportunities and, you know, be on the lookout for 

Hannah Munro: 37:56 

them. Absolutely. 

Rhymer Rigby: 37:56 

And push yourself forward. Make sure your boss knows, you know, or your boss's boss. 

Hannah Munro: 38:02 

I think that's a really good shout there. So, making, you know, not just off, you know, I guess, not just waiting to stick your hand up, but directly pushing. speaking and engaging with your line manager and like you say your boss's boss to make sure that they can they've got you in mind when they're you know when they need something doing. 

Rhymer Rigby: 38:22 

yeah and also you know volunteer for things um whether it is or and you know they'll probably will you know make sure people know that you are you know you're interested in doing these things I mean just go to your boss and say I know there'll be a lot of changes if there are any interesting new opportunities. You don't say, I'm sick of you and I want to leave you. Just say, I'm expanding my role or whatever other euphemisms people use. I want to do something different. But I suspect there'll probably be international opportunities. There'll be a lot and a lot of areas that perhaps have shrunken, particularly in certain industries, particularly in stuff like entertainment, will suddenly grow very, very quickly. And some people who have been shared will never come back. So, again, there will be probably a lot of opportunities in some areas. 

Hannah Munro: 39:19 

Absolutely. So, I'm very aware that we have been chatting about remote working and careers for the last 14 minutes nonstop. So, in terms of our listeners and our audience, so, what are your final thoughts? In order to get ahead in finance, to get that step up the ladder, what are the sort of the top three things that you think they should be doing right now to get themselves into that right position? 

Unknown: 39:45 

Yeah. 

Rhymer Rigby: 39:46 

I guess, you know, right now we are mostly still working remotely. So,, you know, you want to sort of be bringing your remote A game, which is, you know, sort of digital visibility, you know, being as useful as you can, delivering and sort of thinking, still thinking about ways you can deliver some of what perhaps was lost by going remotely. And then I guess, you know, Next, you want to be thinking about going back. You want to be thinking about opportunities when you go back, what is going to change, and possibly even thinking about looking for career opportunities, perhaps even at other companies. Because as I say, it's going to be a time of enormous flux going back. And yeah, there will be opportunities for people who put themselves forward. 

Hannah Munro: 40:46 

Awesome. Well, thank you so, much, Roma. It's been fantastic to have you on the show. And, you know, if people want to find out more about your, you know, your articles, your work for the Financial Times or to find out more about your books, where's the best place to find that out? 

Rhymer Rigby: 41:03 

You can type my name into Google because there's only one of me. It's a very unique name. You can get my books on Amazon. It's all good bookshops. And then, yes, I've written a lot for the FT and some stuff for the Times. So, again, just type my first name and last name into their search engines and you'll find me. 

Hannah Munro: 41:28 

Absolutely. Of course. Of course, of course. And yes, you're right, it is a very unique... Very unique name. So, thank you so, much, Raima, for joining us on the show today. I really appreciate your feedback. And yes, for all of our listeners out there, some great tips to take away in terms of thinking about not only your teams, but also your career and how you're perceived and how you can get ahead and perhaps take advantage of the current situation to get that next step up the ladder. So, thank you, Raima. 

Rhymer Rigby: 42:00 

Thank you very much for having me on.