66. 5 Steps for Getting Started with your ESG Strategy | With Victoria Gillespie, JTC

Hannah Munro: 0:47 

Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. Now, we've talked a lot about New Year's resolutions, about setting priorities for the new year. And one of the things that's come up with a lot of conversations that I'm having with CFOs and finance leaders is all about ESG and what that means for them. So, based on your feedback, I have reached out to Victoria Gillespie, who is head of ESG services at JTC, to come on and talk to us about everything ESG. So, welcome, Victoria. Awesome to have you on the show. 

Victoria Gillespie: 1:24 

Excellent. Thank you very much, Hannah, for having me. 

Hannah Munro: 1:26 

So, tell us a little bit about yourself. What is your role at JTC and how did you end up in? 

Victoria Gillespie: 1:34 

How did I end up in ESG? That's quite an interesting question. I'll try to summarize and keep it simple. So, I'm an accountant, first and foremost. So, governance and structure. For the last 20 years, I've worked within the financial services sector, really to support and provide roles that are really around the governance structure. So, for example, in order and working with hedge funds in the depository function, for example. So, my background is really governance-led. However, the last three to four years, I took an interest more of the cloud. climate side and also looking at the social metrics that could be relevant to certain organisations. So, it really started to pick my interest in terms of where the direction of the regulators would go in, where the direction of companies would go in and actually ultimately what does that look like and how companies behave and what makes them attractive to work for and to interact with. So, that's very loosely my background. And in terms of the role within JTC, so, JTC is a FTSE 250 listed business on the London Stock Exchange It's a fund administration company that helps provide services to private equity funds, real asset funds, and some hedge funds as well. And lastly, also some high net worth individuals. So, we've got quite a broad mix in terms of financial clients, but then ourselves, we also have our own ESG obligations. So, the role that I hold within JTC is to really support both of those viewpoints. So, looking out and interacting with our shareholders and finding out what's important to them and looking at all of the key stakeholders of the business. So, that really underpins how JTC chooses to operate its own ESG strategy and policy. So, I help support the internal governance that sits around that. And then from an external perspective, I try to help our clients with their own ESG journey. So, typically, a client would approach me and say, I don't understand where to start. It's overwhelmed. These acronyms, I don't know what they mean. And it's quite interesting that people, once you start the conversation, they then admit quite quickly that I really do need your help because actually I don't know. There's just too much and I don't have time. I'm quite time poor. So, the role that we play there is to provide services that really looks and supports what they're trying to achieve. And I think that's really important because not everyone can do everything. So, in terms of what is their objective, and that's very specific, specific for them as a firm, as a company, depending on where they're based, what they do, and in terms of what their stakeholders want. 

Hannah Munro: 4:06 

Yeah, because ESG in itself has really come to the fore. And I know we've been slightly distracted over the last couple of years in terms of COVID, in terms of Brexit, but actually it's becoming more important, I think, both to stakeholders, to employees as well. And it's become more of a talking subject. Certainly, when I'm having conversations with people, it's coming up in conversations a lot. So, what is the shift that you have seen over the last couple of years and coming into 2020 and in terms of ESG and the requirements around it. 

Victoria Gillespie: 4:42 

Well, again, that's a very big question. So, in terms of the last couple of years, we've seen increased focus on climate change. It's been in the news. There's been several documentaries that people have seen. And that's just in their day-to-day lives, that loan for business perspective. But there's some initiatives that have been rolled out and the government, different governments within different countries have signed up to meet certain climate targets, but also to meet some other specific metrics. So, you've got, for example, the Sustainable Development Goals. And every year, countries have to report on how they are operating. And really, these metrics are designed for countries to look at how they operate in a social setting, how they operate in a climate change setting, and how they're looking at good governance that then sits around sort of the global standards. So, you've got the United Nations that really support that. Several countries have then looked at that and said, well, this is great, but actually it can appeal to businesses as well. So, it's a really good form of measurement. And actually, what we see is that there's been a big cultural shift, again, because of all of this, because of all of the... I don't want to say marketing, that's probably the wrong word, but because of all the publicity around climate change and the fact people are seeing these social shifts, unfortunately, everybody has been impacted by COVID in one way or another. And therefore, it's becoming more and more important to look at the way businesses operate, to look at the way consumers conduct themselves. And all of it is really intrinsically linked because consumers are they're your staff; they're your staff members. So, how they operate in work is also, most of them like to mimic that behaviour outside of work. So, for example, what we find is companies will come to us and say, actually, A lot of our employees have decided in this jurisdiction that they want to go and do a beach clean, or they want to push for recycling. So, again, it can come internally as well as externally because you've got that regulatory or political pressure being applied to steer the company in terms of the way that government or that regulator wants it to act. 

Hannah Munro: 6:43 

Yes, and there's certainly a lot more how we're being, I wouldn't say pushed, but like how it's becoming a topic both internally and externally as well. So, what are you seeing in terms of, because there is a question, isn't there, about where ESG sits within the organisation? And there is a default thinking that finance should hold it because they are the holders of reporting generally. But what's your viewpoint on that? Where do you think ESG should sit within an organisation? 

Victoria Gillespie: 7:41 

Again, that's been subject to lots of debate. So, when I have discussions with clients, it's very often the CFO and also the CEO that come to me with those questions. And generally, we would encourage people to consider that the responsibility for the ESG strategy needs to be owned at a board level. So, ideally, if the organisation is large enough, you might have your own CSO, so, your Chief Sustainability Officer, does not have to be the CFO, but then you need to be practical. So, again, it depends on how big that organisation is because some people do have to wear more than one hat. To answer your question, I think it's interesting because being an accountant myself, I think very often we are lumbered with, well, you love the numbers, therefore these are metrics, therefore you need to do it. And I think what's really important is that the ESG metrics are not just, yes, they're metrics, yes, they're KPIs, but how they're applied can be very subjective. So, again, and it needs to be owned. I think good ESG strategies are owned within the organisation, you know, from top down and really empower the staff to embrace what those metrics look like and help support the organisation to achieve its ESG objectives, its ESG goals. So, I think in answer to your question, it's normally a quite difficult conversation, but then in reality, we find it's a mixture. So, it can sit with the CFO because you have this reporting obligation. It dovetails quite nicely with other reporting obligations, but then you need to make sure that you're using it as a more you know, more frequent measurement than just the financials. So, ideally, it could be owned by, for example, the COO that might link this into, you know, their HR policy, their, you know, how is the business running day to day and where are the softer KPIs that you might not traditionally put with finance. So, for example, your staff turnover, you know, what are you doing in terms of your CSR strategy and policy and, you know, have the clients happy if you do an employee engagement survey, you know, who owns that at board level. So, you really do need to consider and write Rather than just make the assumption it's measurement, therefore it's finance or it's a CFO's job, actually it's a wider baton to hold than that. It needs to be owned by multiple board members, but then you have key responsibility with one. But I like to encourage that, as I said before, the cultural shift within an organisation and therefore the encouragement to actually integrate all of these metrics within your data operations so, that it becomes business as usual rather than a yearly or six-month. 

Hannah Munro: 10:10 

and I think that's a really good shout in terms of ESG is not just about reporting. It's about, like you say, building out the strategy and embedding that strategy within the wider organisation. So, it does make sense for it to be owned by more than just finance, to be very fair. So, what are some of the changes or conversations or questions even that you get from CFOs when they're first approaching you around ESG? What are they normally worried about or asking about? 

Victoria Gillespie: 10:42 

apart from urine, different disclosure requirements. So, for example, if it's a compliance-led requirement, so, for example, with JTC, we're a FTSE business or a FTSE-listed business, and therefore we have to adhere to listing requirements. And that means for this year, so, the 2021 reporting annual cycle that comes out in a couple of months, we've included TCFD reporting, which is Task Force for Climate-Related Financial Disclosures, which a lot of organisations are starting to use and to reference and again from a regulatory perspective we're seeing a push from certainly from a UK perspective we're seeing a push with regulators asking businesses to start to consider how they would record those metrics and how they would then articulate that to their stakeholders, whether it's financial statements, whether it's shareholder newsletters, how would they, and also staff, how do they relay that to their staff as well? So, yes, I think it's quite interesting. What keeps them up at night is often that process. However, I then encourage them to look at, well, that's great, but it doesn't need to be a one-off exercise. So, what you adopt now, you need to think about what's happening in your short-term, your medium-term, your longer-term, and what do you want to achieve as an organisation? And again, quite naturally, that can't just be a conversation with the CFO. It has to be a conversation with the entire board because CFOs Ultimately, they're responsible for that strategy. And your ESG strategy could be as wide as you want it to be and could incorporate as many elements as you want it to incorporate. So, for example, if you wanted to disclose and adopt every single framework out there, you probably could. I'm sure that would be subject to some debate because that would take a very long time to monitor. However, I think the value here with ESG reporting framework at the moment is that We're kind of discarding the mandatory stuff. But the other frameworks that are elective, they're really interesting because you can tailor which ones fit your business and choose to use them as a guide. And I think quite naturally, some of them support different functions within the business. And I think it needs to reflect what's material and important to your business. So, as you said earlier, a gas company issue metric is going to be completely different from a financial services consultancy firm, for example. Yeah. 

Hannah Munro: 13:00 

So, tell us a little bit about, because you mentioned different frameworks. So, tell us a little bit about the different frameworks that are out there. You know, what are the ones that come to mind or are used most often? 

Victoria Gillespie: 13:13 

Oh, gosh. Again, I'm trying to put this with the focus of the client view that I have and also looking at this from a JTC perspective. From a group perspective, so, a corporate that operates on FTSE 250, for example, we currently report to, so, we have our normal audit standards, our normal discussion with our auditor, but we also choose to apply SASB standards. So, that's the Value Reporting Foundation because of the merger last year. So, we adopt that framework. We also have to comply with TCFD disclosure requirements and then we're also looking at other frameworks as well so, we're considering for example the relevance and how we can look at the sustainable development goals, the SDGs, and how we can tailor our business operations to look at the different metrics that sit behind those goals. Because again, you've got the goals and then you've got, I think it's 169 sub targets that sit underneath all of those. So, it's very vast, but I like the fact it's vast because it means not one framework is designed to suit every business type. So, I think that flexibility can be brilliant, but it can also be daunting So, it's a double-edged sword, I think, at the moment, the way that the frameworks operate. And then in terms of the client base. So, again, looking at this one, private equity, real asset, you know, hedge funds sort of viewpoint. Again, it's going to be relevant to where they're domiciled. how big their operation is, and really what matters to their shareholders. Because if they're operating at a level where they're having conversations with institutional investors, then things like being an elective signatory to UMPRIs, that's principles for responsible investing, they might choose to elect to adopt that framework, which is very closely linked to sustainable development goals. But it is an elective process, and you have to complete an annual return, which is then available on the website for anyone to see. So, your competitors, your investors, and also other interested parties. So, again, that kind of encourages the transparency, which is one of the, you know, it's kind of the... the mindset behind ESG is that we're all working towards that transparency. We're all trying to work towards the greater good using whichever means we possibly can. 

Hannah Munro: 15:33 

So, I guess one of the harder decisions is to figure out which frameworks are both relevant and applicable and within those frameworks, which areas you should focus on, because I'm guessing that it can be quite intimidating when you're first going into it with the scale of what you're expected to deliver as best practice. 

Victoria Gillespie: 15:52 

Yeah, absolutely. And again, I come back to the point. I just touched on a few of the frameworks that we see there because they're the ones that we have that common practice and we've got that experience of working with our clients on. However, there are some other very bespoke ones. So, for example, when you've got a real estate fund, you might look at Grisby Standards or we've got some clients that are looking at B Corp. And again, that's not a quick fix. We're going to become B Corp and we're going to do it in six months. That's a longer-term project because the requirements are so, high. And it's making sure that you pick a strategy or pick a framework that supports your strategy that is laid out for the future. So, you're considering and trying to future-proof, setting up those metrics, but making sure they remain relevant to your business and then ideally tweaking them as you go. So, it might be that you start off building out a framework and actually only three quarters of that framework are relevant to you, or you don't have the data to support something you need to disclose, but you're working on it. And I think that's really important in terms of how you speak to your stakeholders, because you might say, look, we're doing this. It's the best-efforts basis. We're doing it because we think it's the right thing to do. And this is why we've chosen to do this, because this is what we're aiming to achieve. But we're not quite there yet. We might be three quarters there, but then this time next year, we're hoping and we're working towards being fully engaged in all of the measurements within that framework. So, I think it's important in terms of how you relay that to stakeholders as well and say to them, this is why we're doing it. Not just we're doing it, this is why we're doing it. And also, this is what it means to us because I think it's great. And again, I come back to the point that we raised earlier around metrics. It's great having metrics, but what most people get from those metrics is actually the qualitative explanation that supports them. Because if you're Joe Public or you're reading just a metric quite coldly and you don't have the context around it, it's really difficult to understand how it impacts you. So, I think having that commentary to support the figures that you choose to disclose and anything you choose to disclose within your ESG KPIs, I think it's really important to be able to explain them as well. 

Hannah Munro: 18:08 

Yeah, I know. And we did a really interesting podcast way back on annual reports and, you know, about the story that you're telling with your numbers because it's, and by story, I mean the narrative that goes with it because it is so, very true because, you know, numbers can be interpreted in all sorts of ways and without context, without that understanding, you know, whether it's an annual report or whether it's obviously your ESG component of that report, you know, you need to make sure that you you're clear on what is the conversation that you're having with your stakeholders. 

Victoria Gillespie: 18:43 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, with the idea being that everyone does the, you know, people do these metrics, they release information, they present themselves in some way. And as you quite rightly said, you know, that used to be just the annual reports, whereas now it's not. It's how you have your website, how you operate, how you engage within your advertising, how you, you know, it's all of these things that underpin it. And what we're seeing more and more is that ESG is interwoven within the marketing, the campaigning. But yeah, it's not just an annual report thing. It is a, this is a day-to-day operation requirement that we're weaving into the culture of our business because we want to be a sustainable business and we want to exist in five, 10 years’ time onwards. So, I think it's really interesting the way that companies are kind of adopting and evolving to embrace these changes that are coming in, these new requirements. I quite like that. 

Hannah Munro: 19:31 

No, absolutely. And doesn't that go back to our earlier point about who owns it? Because if it's embedded into marketing, if it's embedded into your HR structures, it doesn't make sense for it to be owned by just one of the suite it's got to be across the board yeah you can't have it. 

Victoria Gillespie: 19:48 

in my opinion you can't have it in silo because you've then got a danger of well this is just a thing that we do it's not owned by multiple people within business come to year end and you go, actually, we've got TCFD to comply with. Goodness me, what do we need to do? And then you have this sort of backpedalling of approach of trying to scatter all of the information you need to support the disclosures. And really, I think the intention of these and behind all of these frameworks is that they are embedded within the day-to-day practice. And again, it's really designed to push culture and to push the way that the employees, businesses operate, and consumers act as well. So, it really does, in my opinion, it really sets the foundation for cultural shift more widely. We are talking about ESG frameworks in the context of CFOs and boards. However, I think there's the ripple effect is greater than that. 

Hannah Munro: 20:36 

Yeah, and I guess it's more impactful as well. Once you get the wider organisational board as well, you know, it's not just something you do to, you know, satisfy your shareholders and to produce the annual report. Like you say, it's about building a culture of sustainability and ethical responsibility across the wider organisation. And, you know, there's been quite a few studies, haven't they, that show that embedding that actually drives better returns for both investors and the wider stakeholders as well. 

Victoria Gillespie: 21:04 

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it Again, it goes one step further than that because you now have, if you're a business that relies on bank loans on your books, your lending terms vary depending on what your ESG approach is. So, again, we've seen that coming in as well where conversations, I think I'm quite lucky in the role that I currently have because I have the opportunity to talk to so, many different stakeholders and industry experts in terms of what they're looking for. And some of the larger banks I've been lucky enough to have that conversation with, it's really insightful what's driving their business, their lending requirements and what that impact looks like to businesses. And you might have a loan that's 5%, not quite in actual numbers, but say you've got a loan that's 5% because if you then go to take that loan back out or take out a new loan, you might find that if you're not meeting their green threshold, their lending requirements, because of what you're going to do with that money, you might find that actually your interest is 10%. So, it's not just a case of this is what we'd like to have. There's also financial consequences as well that we're starting to see creep in. And then from the investor perspective, again, our clients are saying to me, Victoria, I've got a client that's approached me, or a potential investor and they want us to be PRI signatory, or they want us to do X, Y, Z. And then normally I have a conversation with them and they're doing quite a lot of the work anyway. They're just not articulating it. So, actually what we find is it's quite surprising for them because the isn't too great between what they currently do and what they have to do, which is quite nice. It's a bonus for them. But the investors, it's important. Again, they're asking that on their due diligence questionnaires before they invest. And then their expectations to have that continued support ongoing as part of their underlying investments. 

Hannah Munro: 22:48 

So, we've talked a lot about obviously how wide ESG can go, but I think one of the interesting conversations and one of the questions I wanted to ask you is why now? So, you know, is ESG still an early adoption thing? Is it something to get ahead of the curve or is it actually, are you seeing sort of real-life use cases where it's a requirement now and people need to start the shift? 

Victoria Gillespie: 23:11 

As you quite rightly say, I think it's everybody, the expectation on every business is that they're doing something. And I think if you, regardless of which sector you operate in, I think if you do nothing, then you will be asked by your suppliers, by your consumers, by your clients, by your employees. Why? Why are we not doing anything? So, I think you'll quickly become the outlier if you choose not to do something. Again, that said, it depends on which sector you operate in. Some sectors are far more advanced than others. So, for example, the gas sectors and certain other sectors are absolutely a lot further down the road than, for example, hedge funds or private equity. And even that said, I think sometimes it's because of the disclosure requirements and availability of information. I think private equity is, again, further advanced. behind hedge funds. So, again, we're seeing even within sectors, I think it depends again on what the sub-sector is within that overarching sector because that's coming at different speeds as well. And I think part of that is the availability of information that's causing that delay, but also really the push and the driver and this acceptance from shareholders and from stakeholders that If the information is available, therefore there's an expectation that they are not just saying they're doing it, they're showing they're doing it and they're reporting to metrics. They're able to demonstrate how. And I think that's the other really important thing. It's great saying we have an ESG strategy, but what we encourage clients to ask is, okay, so, what? what does that mean? You know, what does that, how does that impact me? And what does that look like? And, you know, really look at and critique, you know, what are you not telling me? That in my expectation and experience, what should I know that you're choosing not to tell me? Because I think sometimes being honest with investor, again, that's becoming a really big, high expectation to be as honest as you possibly can about your journey and where you are, because not everybody is as far along as they would like to be, or they're not as far along as their competition. So, but companies that have been operating certain components of ESG, they've done that for quite a long time, are further ahead of the curve than obviously their competition. I mean, JTC have had their culture, it's a shared ownership model that they've operated for a very long time. And that's something that we embed and we're quite proud of within our culture. So, it's really important that the staff own part of the business. That isn't replicated in all of our competitors, for example, but it's a unique aspect to JTC. So, I think in terms of things like adopting those earlier best practices, they're things that really set companies up to build that momentum, but also to build that history and that experience. 

Hannah Munro: 25:57 

Absolutely. And I am a mass believer in that, you know, you can start small. So, you know, taking those first steps and just getting, dipping your toe in the water is best, better off than when somebody's pushing you in and you have to jump. 

Victoria Gillespie: 26:12 

And it's never going to be perfect. I mean, you know, global standards at the moment, they're working on it. They're trying to put together the Global Sustainability Board. That's at some point going to be rolled out. But what I encourage clients to do and actually what I'd encourage anybody to do is not wait. you know, there's no point in waiting until a framework's perfect. So, as I said earlier, the example that I gave, if you can find something that, that fits you, even if it's only three quarters, use that because, you know, as long as it remains appropriate for you for the longer term, because what, what the industry and what, What businesses shouldn't be doing is switching. It has to be consistently applied over a period of time to obviously build up that historical performance within those KPIs and those stats. So, you can't report to SASB this year, then TCFD next year, then flip to something else the year afterwards. It just, again, that doesn't make sense because it's a very confusing message to relate to the market and to relate to all of your stakeholders. 

Hannah Munro: 27:10 

So, for those that haven't even contemplated ESG strategy, they know they need to do it. It's on the back of their mind. And now we're, you know, getting through all of the challenges that we've seen over the last few years. When they come to you, how do you approach sort of the first steps? What is your approach in terms of methodology for helping people to figure out what ESG looks like for them? 

Unknown: 27:36 

Yeah. 

Victoria Gillespie: 27:37 

I asked questions that they probably don't want me to ask to begin with. Things like, why are you doing this? What does it mean to you? Where do you want to be in 10 years’ time as an organisation? So, listening to those answers is really telling in terms of how far they want to take that ESG adoption and how critical it is to their business. Because then you know, well, actually, it's a feasible suggestion I can make in terms of helping them and supporting them. And some clients are very overwhelmed that they don't want, as you quite rightly said a moment ago, they want to dip their toe in the water to start the process. And then we might look to work with them over a longer period of time to build upon that. And we're not experts in particular frameworks. We offer some very soft services that just support that initial part of the journey, or we can offer a review at a later stage. The plan here and the purpose behind ESG services is to help clients start their journey. So, we might say to them, okay, well, COP26 is very topical. Climate change is topical for everybody. So, we might want to start with looking at what your carbon footprint looks like. So, do you know what your carbon footprint is as an organisation? And very often, I think people are quite surprised and pleasantly surprised at the process and how quickly they can do that. And then we look at, okay, well, this is what you should report to. This is how you do it. And then this is what you might want to consider adding as well. So, for example, we'll say to businesses that have got a lot of staff, for example, we've had COVID, have they been working from home? If they have, then you could argue that that's a material element of the calculation for your business. So, you might want to include that. You don't have to, but you could include it. And actually what that shows is that when you come to do your calculation, you're not just looking at we've got an output of X number of tonnes of carbon, but you're telling the story that sits behind it to say, well, actually, this is how it's made up and this is... How is the business? Oh gosh, we didn't know that. That's really high. We might not want to do that in future. So, you, it leads to, conversations whereby a company can then look out, well, actually, do we want to do that in future? Do we not? We've seen some clients, for example, which have said, oh gosh, our travel is really, really high. Our travel was very high. So, we now, we like the fact that employees are getting time back because they're not traveling as much and they really enjoy it. They're more productive. So, we've got our carbon footprint as being quite excessive. That's travel. Flight travel is a large component of our footprint. We've also got this other side of the calculation where staff are telling us they enjoy working from home or they don't want to travel as much oh I know we're going to we're going to come up with a revised travel policy that's going to consider both and then it adds favourably to the operations of that business because they've realized actually zoom calls for some in some instances are a suitable alternative and they're less carbon intensive so, it kind of is a win-win so, it's using these tiny baby steps then pull out how that how that can change and tweak your business operations. And then that becomes your ESG strategy for the business because you're like, well, we've done carbon footprint. How can we add to that? What do we need to change? Oh, we need to change our policy on travel. We need to... So, it's really interesting as much as ES and G are all separate factors, they are intrinsically linked because one impacts the other, impacts the other, et cetera. So, it's... it's a really interesting process. So, you go through the carbon footprint, for example, then you'll say, oh, we can put that into a policy. So, then you help client write policy. And a policy doesn't have to be 300 pages. It can be a few pages, but then if that's what you want, you know, policy is 300 pages, that's fine. You can have, you know, you have 3000-page policy if you want to. But again, it's making sure you, you do what you say you're doing. And I think that's really important to add to that credibility because otherwise everyone can go and buy an off-the-shelf ESG policy. But then when you're asked to provide evidence to demonstrate how you meet those requirements, you're going to struggle. So, again, it's making sure that those policies are really fit and replicate what you do as a business and what you can achieve because you don't want to over-promise and under-deliver. I think that's a far worse crime. But also, you want to recognise what you're doing well. And I think sometimes pulling together and listening to what they're currently doing and looking at processes and practices and which industry bodies do they work with? Oh, you're doing that, you're doing that. And you can pull in quite quickly and almost weave together this policy that sits behind and supports and showcases, if you like, what they're doing and what they're doing quite well. And where they, of course, where they need to improve. 

Hannah Munro: 32:10 

Yeah, no, and I think that's a really good point because, yeah, I've seen a few tomes, you know, on people's hard drives. And I think just like other policies about, you know, bringing policies to life is really important. And if it's 300 pages, is your new starter really going to sit down and read it? 

Unknown: 32:28 

Yeah. 

Hannah Munro: 32:28 

Yeah. And I think, and are your investors going to take any notice of it if it's in that level of, you know, that level of detail and that size of piece? So, I think it's a really good point about bringing that ESG policy to life and weaving it into your everyday is a really good insight. So, for those, so, we talked a little bit about obviously starting the conversation and getting there. So, for those that know they need to make a change, what are your sort of five steps to getting started with ESG? So, somebody sitting there at home, listening to this podcast, like, right, okay, this is the year, 2022 is the year. What are the five sort of pillars that they need to think about or five steps they need to start with? 

Unknown: 33:19 

Yeah. 

Victoria Gillespie: 33:20 

I think first and foremost, you need to conduct a gap analysis of what you need to report on. So, have a look at what are the requirements. So, what are your compliance? What do you have to comply with by a certain period? And then look at what your investors and your stakeholders want to receive. So, it might be you're getting a lot of due diligence questions, you're getting a lot of employees providing feedback to say, why are we not doing this? So, again, second point would be to have a look at that and look at all of the data and work out what you're going to do with it. So, work out your 5, 10, 15-year plan etc. The third point would be making sure that you then once you've achieved that you then own that at board level and those reporting lines that responsibility is very clearly defined so, that without a doubt if someone goes on your website or has a conversation they know who to go to talk about ESG so, I think that's really important. I think fourth would be training your internal staff so, if you're going to update a policy and you're going to operate new practices you need to make sure they're trained so, that if there are What's ESG? Why does it matter to this company? They can tell people because they know and also, they have the opportunity to buy and ultimately support the process to make sure the organisation meets its ESG or sustainability targets. So, for example, if they introduce a new recycling policy, how is that relayed? Does every employee know what that means to them? And lastly, have conversations and talk. There's so, many resources out there. So, that's great. If you have the internal time and capability and someone that can own this project, brilliant. There's so, much free resources out there. The European Commission, the different legal houses, for example, companies such as JTC. We put so, much out there in terms of what the regulations are, what to look out for, what's best practice. However, I tend to find the people that come to me are quite time poor and therefore they just want a summary of, well, what do I need to know about and what do I need to do to start? So, again, that generally is a conversation. And I think it's really important to have that with your current suppliers and also your shareholders. Make sure you're asking them, what do you expect from us? What do you want to see? Because again, that can help drive your journey. 

Hannah Munro: 35:29 

Absolutely. And for those that are sitting there listening saying, that's great. I get those five steps. But like you said, Victoria, they're a little bit time poor and they just don't have the time to spend researching. If they want to find out more about the support that you could potentially offer, what's the best way to find you and JTC? 

Unknown: 35:50 

Yeah. 

Victoria Gillespie: 35:50 

JTC, we are available at www.jtcgroup.com. So, we have our own website, and we have our own contacts. That said, we can't service the world, unfortunately. So, we specialize in the financial services sector and really private equity, real estate, and also hedge funds. So, I would suggest if you were listening and that fits your brief, then feel free to pick up the phone, have a conversation with us. We're advocates and we support a number of causes and industry practices as well. So, we can offer those insights. And really, if we can help, that's great. But if you don't sit within that, then have a look at, you know, there's carbon consultants out there. There are carbon footprint companies out there that offer a level of consultancy. There's some really good ones that we work with. And I think having that conversation, again, with your auditors, asking them where they can, what would they encourage you to have a look at? And then speak to legal teams and legal houses or visit their websites and have a quick look at or scan. And I think lastly, some of the most valuable, as much as we don't want to do what our competitors are doing, I think it's really important to see what's going on around you. So, what are your competitors reporting to? Is that something that's suitable to you? You might choose, actually, it's not, that's not relevant for us, we're not going to do it. But again, it becomes a certain level of best practice or expectation of your clients that you'll eventually report to a certain standard. So, you might want to choose consciously. Again, I would always encourage you to do that. So, rather than default, we're going to do this. Make a conscious decision in terms of what's applicable and relevant to you. 

Hannah Munro: 37:23 

No, that's really great. And I think one of the fascinating things that if in this conversation is how much is involved in ESG, there's frameworks, there's how you manage the strategy, there's how you report on it. There's so, many different elements. So, if it's all right with you, Victoria, I might be asking you if we could maybe talk further on some of those deeper dive topics. So, because as much as I would love to continue this conversation for another hour or two, I think we're at a point where we're you know, it's great. It's a great overview for people that are looking to get started. So, I want to say thank you so, much, Victoria. And I'm sure our guests are sitting there listening or our listeners are sitting there listening going, right, I know I need to start something and hopefully have a bit of guidance as to where to look and where to get some more information from. So, thank you so, much, Victoria. It's been lovely speaking to you. And thank you again for coming on the show. Thank you very much. Absolute pleasure. Thank you, Hannah. No problems at all. And for our listeners that would like to learn more about JTC, just so, you guys know, I will put some of the links that Victoria's mentioned in the show notes. And I would encourage you to check out both her profile, which is where I found her on LinkedIn and also the website as well. So, thank you again. And yeah, guys, let 2022 be the year of our ESG focus. So, thanks, everyone. Speak soon.