70. The connection between sustainability and finance | with Lilly Miller, CFO at Planet Mark

Hannah Munro: 0:48 

So, hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. We are continuing our theme today, talking all about ESG. And actually, I've got a CFO. So, we've got Lily Miller, who's from Planet Mark, who is going to talk to us about what it's like working as a CFO, working with a sustainable business, and the connection between finance and sustainability. So, welcome, Lily. Awesome to have you on the show. 

Lilly Miller: 1:15 

Thank you. Lovely to be here. Thanks for having me. 

Hannah Munro: 1:18 

So, tell us a little bit about yourself, Lily. How did you end up at Planet Mark? What was your journey into the role? 

Lilly Miller: 1:25 

It's a little bit of luck, really. It's nice to think that our careers are all quite well planned out, but mine has been a bit of good luck and a lot of hard work, but lots of luck and knowing people along the way. So, I started my career working actually in corporate recovery. So, I qualified as an accountant, and I used to deal with businesses that were insolvent, and we used to go in and trade those businesses and then sell them. Completely different world from sustainability, but was introduced, had my children and then I wanted a little bit of a change of work life, was looking for something purpose-driven, something I could put all my skills to really good use and feel really fulfilled in my work, but doing something that wasn't making people redundant on a So, I was really lucky. I had some connections that I've made through work, and they introduced me, just happened to know our CEO, Steve at Planet Mark. And that was nine years ago. Yeah, nine years ago, 2013. And we've, yeah, we've kind of grown this business from six people up to, I think we're at 56 now and still hiring. So, it's been a crazy, amazing, really difficult journey it's like I don't sugarcoat it it's really um hard work but incredible and I get to work with some amazing purpose-driven people that really love their job and care about what they do. So, it's a good balance. 

Hannah Munro: 3:01 

Absolutely. And I think it's always important. The company that you work for is just as important, I think, as the people that you work with. So, choosing the right company that fits with your goals. So, it sounds amazing. So, tell us about the journey. That's a massive growth shift, isn't it? From, what was it, six people to 50 and still going. So, what were some of the challenges you faced you know managing the finance in such you know a quick growth path? 

Lilly Miller: 3:32 

the challenges that I still face every day now because it's uh it is growing so, quickly around us um so, putting systems in place building a team um for me a really big part of this has been this is my baby this business is my baby so, I've hiring people into the business that you can trust and hand the baby partly over to that's a really big thing so, having you know having that strength underneath you so, that you because we're jumping around um doing lots and lots of bits and pieces so, within the Planet Mark I head up finance hr and digital so, it's quite a range of you know bits going on so, it's really vital that that I've got a great team, which I have. I'm super, super lucky. 

Hannah Munro: 4:19 

Oh, fantastic. And in terms of your, obviously, because you are a sustainable business, how does the ESG component come into your job? Is it a strategy that's owned by the entire organisation? Do you have a key part in it? Tell me a little bit about where that crossover is in your organisation. 

Lilly Miller: 4:39 

It's really interesting for us, actually, because people say to us, you know, sustainability strategies and what does your business do? And I'm like, it's in our blood. We live and breathe it. So, the Planet Mark is, you know, was formed to allow any business of any size to measure and reduce their carbon footprint. So, everybody within our business is sustainability focused, probably everybody. the only ones without a background in sustainability are probably me and some of the HR team, perhaps a couple of people in support roles. So, it's just so, much of who we are that we don't often stop to question it. We're busy helping other businesses, you know, come on their journey. So, yeah, it's a really funny one. It's everywhere. I think for us, I suppose the place where we have the greatest impact and the work that we do every day is introducing people businesses to sustainability, where they should get started, how they can embed sustainability within their companies, because it's absolutely useless. Maybe not useless. I'll rephrase that. It's much less impact if one person is in an organisation trying to drive something, right? It needs to be throughout. And we need to be engaging with employees and stakeholders so, that everybody's involved. Many hands make light work. People have got ideas. They want to be doing this, you know, doing all this great work. So, that's really what we try and empower and get to happen with all the businesses that we work with. They measure. they engage their employees and then they communicate. There's no use in doing something and not sharing the story with the outside world. Just these are shared challenges, aren't they? I mean, most businesses are probably having the same questions and going, God, we've all got similar problems. We've got to be sharing as a community and there's no time to waste, really. 

Hannah Munro: 6:35 

You know, I think that's a really good point because literally ESG is a bit of a theme for us on the podcast this year, guys. If you're enjoying this podcast to our listeners, there's plenty more of that to come. But what's really interesting, I think, is the perceived role of finance in ESG. And sometimes I think there's like, oh, we know we need to do something with ESG. We're just going to give it to the finance director because it's reporting focused and there's an element of... you know responsibility and legislation around it so, it fits nicely there but I love your concept of making sure that everyone's involved in this piece and driving it forward and I think that's one of the most interesting concepts that I think people sometimes forget it's just like you say it's not one person's responsibility 

Lilly Miller: 7:22 

not absolutely it's really strange actually because you use the words ESG and it sits within finance compliance and all of those things right which can make it sound quite boring to anybody else. Use the word sustainability and it sits within a green team, a sustainability manager in a larger business. Sometimes that doesn't really have a home. It can sometimes sit in facilities or office managers. If you just use doing the right thing and things that are good for our planet, who will go, oh yeah, I'm not interested in that. That sounds a bit boring. So, it's about making this subject, this great big climate crisis issue that we all know is a problem it's about making it feel personal that people feel like they can do something it's about empowering and educating and getting everybody involved there's no use in going on the complex three words over there and it's a report that goes with your financial statements every year like what is that changing 

Hannah Munro: 8:20 

No, and I think that's really, it's about why you're doing it. And I think that's the question people don't ask themselves before they start. It's like, why are we actually doing this? Is it a compliance piece? You know, is it because our employees are asking us to do it? Is it because our stakeholders are expecting us? You know, what is the purpose behind them, you know, the conversations that we're having? And I think people are incredibly surprised when they open up the conversation about how much their employees and their customers also care about this as a as a topic so, that was something because obviously we're starting um our ESG or sustainability or you know doing the right thing journey I love that um and I was quite you know something I'm quite passionate about but I was I was very excited to hear that other people were as well so, it's an it's a great conversation to have 

Lilly Miller: 9:14 

So, our business is, you know, I think because we're purpose driven, it can be quite different to what I think of as traditional or very corporate world where you have this barrier in place. You've got who you are at home and who you are at work. And in my view that, you know, you can have a barrier if you need one yourself and you'd like to, but most people just want to be able to be free to be themselves. And embedding sustainability, ESG, doing the right thing in your business is, People are already doing this at home. You ask most people on the street, they're recycling. They know there's issues. They're trying to drive less. They're doing personal initiatives. People have got loads of ideas. People are super interested in this. Because as you say, is it because your employees want you to? Is it because for bids and tenders, you're not going to win any work unless you're doing something here? All of these different factors, it's everything together. The business benefits in addressing these issues are huge. And this is something that we see all the time. We say to people, this should not be my business and then sustainability on the side. Embed it in and you reap rewards. We really do. 

Hannah Munro: 10:23 

Absolutely. So, we talked very much about sustainability and this culture. Maybe that's the culture of sustainability being caught, you know, being organisation-wide. But what do you see as the role of finance in this? Like, how do you and your team support these efforts? How do you approach it? 

Lilly Miller: 10:43 

It's interesting because I think we were just saying about ESG sitting with finance, sustainability often sitting elsewhere in the business. And I'm always going, well, hang on, finance know this, finance know this. Accounting and sustainability are so, aligned. And some people have made that connection and others haven't. If you think about the roles of a CFO or a finance director, they're around reduction of risk, right? revenue generated and controlling costs. If you look at those three things, each of those are addressed. There are issues but then addressed with dealing with ESG. Something that stuck with me when I read it, the World Economic Forum, the top 10 business risks that they highlighted, six of them were climate focused. Six out of 10 business risks. I mean, it's absolutely huge. The risk in not taking action is massive from a loss of work, from a climate issue, from impact on your business supply chains. Risk reduction is a really big piece here. You've then got things like revenue generated. You've got pressure from the outside world, stakeholders, employees, people's expectation on you doing this. When I think about bids and tenders, we saw something that was actually released by Tesco. The Tesco sent something out. It was an email, and it must have, gosh, the month's blending to one. It was probably about four or five months ago. So, their entire supply chain saying that we expect you to be measuring and reducing your carbon is by the end of this year. Send us what you're doing. Can you imagine how many people got that email from Tesco's and went, oh, my goodness, what on earth am I going to do? So, if you're not, if you haven't started now, you're going to get to the point where you absolutely have to. And reduction of risk and future proofing, you've got to be ahead. It's just, you know, it's madness not to. You know it's coming. Get ahead and then you're not reactive and panicking. And, yeah, it's crazy. And then costs. So, the cost is the easy thing, right? With sustainability, we can see the energy crisis is bonkers. Costs of fuel, costs of electricity are flying through the roof. People that did introduce solar power into their buildings two, three, four years ago, even six months ago, they're reaping the rewards now, particularly with the rising energy prices. EVs, you think about renewable energy, that's the simplest thing. Every single person business everyone in the country should be buying renewable energy simple switches um that were they all these things kind of lead to cost reduction employee retention because people feel like they're involved and they've got purpose in their roles so, they want to stay because they're heard and seen and so, it's just it's like it's everywhere to see what I could just talk to you about it all day 

Hannah Munro: 13:41 

yeah, no I think that's it's so, true um I think I think it's often looked, like you say, it's often looked at as a regulatory piece or as a reporting piece. And actually, as we've already discussed, it's more about building a culture and embedding it in. And there's so, many benefits. If you look at all of the studies, they always say that those that have a sustainable focus are more successful. And I have to say, I think it's a massive employee engagement piece. I think we all feel like we have a responsibility these days to shift that. So, what are some of the learnings that you've sort of, obviously coming not from a sustainable background initially, how did you sort of build this awareness? How did you approach it when you first came on board in terms of building out the finance side and supporting sustainability? 

Lilly Miller: 14:36 

It's really interesting because, gosh, if you go back, even probably if you look back four or five years, this wasn't anywhere near as high on people's agendas or on the radar, I suppose. I've always... In my personal life, I've always had a huge aversion to waste. But that's my thing, right? Everyone's kind of got their real... area of interest in sustainability you look at our team people have got certain specialisms or things that they really personally drives their mind is around food and well-being and waste and that kind of stuff um so, that's always been really important to me but I people say why did you choose to work for the Planet Mark and I was like well actually it was really just a little bit of luck it sounded great but I'm almost a complete convert I didn't know I didn't know the things that I know now. I hadn't been surrounded in my working world by sustainability experts. So, it's just been gradual. And I think the more that you listen and read and learn and see this embeddedness of ESG and sustainability, I see the success stories, which is really lovely. This can be quite a difficult sector to work in because the problem's huge. it can be hugely draining. And in a way, there's some days where you see the reports that are issued or floods and things that are happening around the world and you think, oh my God, it's just so, the problem is so, overwhelming. And you're trying to, you're taking tiny actions every single day, but it can get quite a lot. And we find that burnout is quite high, not just in our business, but I think in the profession as a whole, because people are throwing everything, they can into trying to fix problems. all these issues um so, yeah it's really it's interesting it's super rewarding um and what gets you through I think those that that filming feeling of overwhelmingness if that's a word um feeling of being overwhelmed is seeing and hearing all those amazing stories um And we've got companies that have worked with us for the past nine, 10 years and they're still reducing, they're still making changes. So, it's not just that you come in and you fix everything within a couple of years, it's a continuous journey and a continuous improvement. And it's awesome getting to see that and what people are achieving, it's great. 

Hannah Munro: 17:05 

So, what are some of the things that people can do in finance to help reduce their carbon footprint to help drive change, small or big, I think? You know, there's no unnoticeable effort, is there? You know, all of the efforts count. 

Lilly Miller: 17:23 

No, there isn't. And like we were saying, lots and lots of small changes. I think something really key that finance can play a part in is looking at supply chains. So, we've got responsibility, right, for all of our suppliers that will often sit, procurement will often sit within finance or certainly finance have a huge impact over that. For some businesses, the supply chains can make up 90% of their carbon footprint. So, it's all very well measuring what's happening in your office and within your direct control. But actually, that could be maybe only 10% of your impact as a business. So, you have to be looking out wider. Where do we purchase our goods from? What are their principles? Are they measuring and reducing their carbon? Are they on the same page? Do they share your values? All of the, again, this is going back to the risk factor, people with what we like to call dirty supply chains, but not actually knowing, are they paying minimum wage? Are they meeting requirements for where, especially in other countries, but cleaning and really getting awareness of your supply chain and what they're doing, ripple effect of that is absolutely massive. So, going back to Tesco's, they are doing that, their entire supply chain. They're making sure that they're all focusing on sustainability. They're all measuring the carbon and reducing the carbon footprint year on year. And you think of the big companies that it just cascades quickly. So, that's a massive, massive piece. 

Hannah Munro: 18:58 

Out of interest, what sorts of questions do you ask your suppliers? And how do you do it? Do you do it with forms that you ask them to work through? Do you have conversations about their sustainability goals and support them through it? How do you approach it? 

Lilly Miller: 19:16 

So, if we were doing this piece of work for one of our customers, this would be a selection of our consultants would go in and we can do different levels. So, we obviously help companies achieve net zero. That can be light touch. So, kind of telling, educating, running workshops and saying, right, this is what you need to go and do. And then some companies will want that, and others will want a fully managed service where we would go in and really run a deep dive program for them. or five, six months, depending on the size of the business, and everything in between, depending on their capabilities, their budget, all of these things. So, us going out to supply chains would often be surveys. It's obviously digital. If there were large supply chains, that may be liaising directly with those. So, if... It depends on– it's very, very bespoke. It depends on the business, and it depends on how big their supply chain is and what percentage of that business's carbon footprint is made up. It could be that one supplier makes up 80% of their supply chain's carbon footprint. So, it really has to be quite bespoke. And this is something I think our industry as a whole and certainly us as a business– We're trying to make sure that we get right because there's not a one size fits all. It's really driven. A service business would be completely different from a manufacturing business and someone with UK operations only would be completely different to a worldwide. And it really is about looking at that individual business and what's right for them. 

Hannah Munro: 20:52 

Absolutely. So, supply chains are obviously a key part of that, because obviously you can have a wider impact than just on yourselves. But what other areas can finance contribute in terms of sustainability? 

Lilly Miller: 21:08 

I think, so, traditionally, if you looked at, I mean, probably if you go back 20 years, and I know some businesses are still like this, Everything's very siloed and finance can often be the other people over there and they're just a bit of a drag. You know, the people that say, have you got budget? Haven't you got budget? It can be, they can be very disconnected from the actual business and the operations of the business. And I believe, and this is proven and widely believed as well, that finance works best when it's embedded, ingrained within a business. And something that I personally try and do at The Planet Mark is make sure that everybody understands finance. So, we're not just reporting figures. We're actually explaining what that means and what's behind them and what drives them. Because if people understand that that then means that they're making better decisions and they understand what they're doing and how that links back to the business's performance. And that's exactly the same in sustainability. So, I read something a little while ago and it said, like it or not, we're all sustainability managers now. And it's really true. There shouldn't just be somebody over there in the corner, whether it's sustainability or finance, managing something, plugging away at numbers, and then just giving you a report, which you look at and think, oh, wonderful, but you don't read it. It's got to be embedded within the business. And where finance and sustainability are so, intertwined is this measurement piece. So, any accountant is going to love a spreadsheet. I absolutely love a spreadsheet. And we say you can't manage what you don't measure. You cannot manage a carbon footprint and your business's contribution to society and their impact on the world without actually knowing where you're starting. You can make changes, but you've no idea what the impact of those changes would be. You know, it's like saying, if you could go off and just save me some money on budget, please. I'm not going to tell you where you started. I'm not going to tell you how much to save. But if you could just make some savings, that'd be great. No one in their right mind would get laughed at, wouldn't you? Absolutely. But that's exactly what people do in sustainability. They go, well, let's just make a few changes and do the right thing. But we don't know what success looks like because we don't know where we started. So, this is where it always blows my mind when finance aren't dealing with their carbon footprint or their measurement piece in a business and it's sitting with a green team and they're not talking because it's within the blood of any kind of accountant and finance professional to measure. 

Hannah Munro: 23:44 

Yeah. Absolutely. And I think, but you know what, I think your point about it's not just about the numbers. It's actually about, like you say, embedding and explaining and ensuring understanding of those numbers that is the sign of a successful finance team, whether that is finance numbers or whether, like you say, it's sustainability numbers. And I think that's a big shift that we're seeing at the moment in terms of the role of finance and how that should change. Because, you know, it used to be literally financed rules was always about, you know, the compliance and the accounting and counting the pennies and then giving that information to the wider business for them to make decisions and show insights. But it sounds like you've really grasped that and turned it on its head like a lot of, I think, finance teams are starting to do and are acting as that sort of support and advisory service versus the typical bean counter. It's quite a derogatory term, but it's true. The abacus... the approach it's quite amazing isn't it the shift that accounting's gone through the last sort of 10 to you know to 50 years it's a huge shift. 

Lilly Miller: 24:54 

absolutely yeah it's I think this is what's worked so, well um in Planet Mark and with my role is that I'm really embedded in kind of the running of the business as well as the finance um So, having that amazing team and I actually, I love nothing more than sitting myself in a room and just burying my head into spreadsheets or accounting software and doing chart accounts and journals and I'm like, oh, it's amazing. But that's not where the biggest value is. The value is actually turning what we're what we're generating over here and going into the business and saying, right, what can we change? Getting under the skin. Problem solving is something that I just absolutely love. One of my colleagues said to me this morning, oh, my God, you're just fixing problems. I said, yeah, I don't really know what the term for that is. I'm not sure what you put on your CV, like chief problem solver. But really getting into the business and finding solutions that are also financially, you know, beneficial and helping people and working with people um is something that I absolutely love and again I think super key super important for a successful business. 

Hannah Munro: 26:05 

No, absolutely. And I think one of the things that I'd love to talk to you about is almost that crossover, not just between finance and sustainability, but between culture and sustainability. Because, you know, one of the things that I think is really important is engaging your team and your wider organization. So, how do you approach it? Like, how do you support your team in terms of empowering them to make these changes from a sustainability perspective? 

Lilly Miller: 26:33 

So, we have our own green teams within Planet Mark. As I said to you, it's really interesting because you'd say, who's interested in sustainability here? Everyone's like, who? Of course. But we do kind of condense that down and have people that drive initiatives. We're super lucky because we do this for other businesses. So, it's probably most helpful kind of explaining how we unlock that in a business that isn't sustainability focused because we can sit here and go, yeah, we've got it started. But I think really what we were just talking about with finance and bringing numbers alive and driving change is exactly what Planet Mark promotes in terms of sustainability. So, it's all very well getting a carbon footprint. There are plenty of businesses out there that will give you a carbon footprint. There's even online tools that will give you a carbon footprint. Okay, it's not going to be as robust and reliable, and it's not externally verified and all of those great things. But actually the key to driving change is educating people around what that means because otherwise that number and that beautiful report that we present is kind of meaningless if it just sits on someone's desk and then goes in their financial statements for their streamlined energy and carbon reporting obligations that they have to submit. So, we run workshops with the companies that we work with we try and encourage them to bring as many people from within the business as possible. And it's a case of going through the footprint, looking at what that means, what the key drivers are, where the low-hanging fruit, you know, because you can't tackle everything at once. You can't tackle it all in one year. As I said to you, it's continuous improvement. So, helping people to understand and then sparking this kind of idea generation piece, which actually any business, you know, you don't need a workshop with us. Any business can bring together a green team get people onto that team get them throwing ideas around it understand what your impact is as a business and then you say my god look you know 50 comes from power or fleet or so, okay let's set up a team and we're all going to we're all going to look at that we're going to generate ideas and just focusing in um and having these innovation sessions um You don't have to be experts. I think that's the thing people go, God, I don't know enough about this, so, I'm just going to, oh, God, what if I'm wrong? Crack on, get started. There's loads of help out there. There's loads of businesses like ours that would absolutely love to help. There's loads of information on the internet. There's a lot out there. 

Hannah Munro: 29:13 

No, and I watched an incredible video by Simon Sinek. I'm not sure if you've followed him, but he did a brilliant one on creating an embedding culture. And what he said was really interesting is there's a point at which I think it was about 20% where things start to shift. And actually, you don't focus on the masses in the beginning. Like you said, you get people that have an interest and are willing to step up and be the first to drive that change. And by engaging them they then go out and talk and other people want to get involved because you've got those um those that are willing to sort of pave the way for others so, I think that's an it's a really good shout in terms of building a green team it doesn't have to be like you say a full-time role it just has to be people that have a passion for it and want to drive it forwards hey I'll take that away as well on our team I'll be like that's a great idea 

Lilly Miller: 30:08 

It's that sense of, again, you're bringing purpose into your organisation. Yeah. That then feeds your culture. And if you've got a group of people together all trying to achieve really good things, it feels great. Like, you think just part of being human, like, actually, what do we all really want as human beings? We want to kind of love, be loved, be kind. People be kind to us and to do the right thing. And having that sense of, again, it is purpose, but doing the right thing feels really good. Yeah. And it's really uplifting for people. So, again, it's all these little boxes that you kind of tick within your team whilst doing something that's really beneficial for the planet. 

Hannah Munro: 30:48 

No, absolutely. I think there are so, many benefits to actually shifting this. So, is there any benefits that you can share or any information you can share on sort of, you know, why should finance leaders be trying to push this forward, you know, either personally or professionally? What are the benefits to? 

Lilly Miller: 31:14 

Like I said earlier, I think it's do it or be pushed into doing it. I spent quite, it was something I did last year, and I spent quite a bit of time thinking, what does it mean to be a good leader? What does that mean for me personally? What do I want to be remembered for? What's your own purpose? Do you want to be remembered for the person that made the biggest profit? And is it profit versus purpose? Actually, the evidence shows that when you bring people purpose into an organization profit flows out because people want to work with businesses that are doing the right thing um I definitely think finance has a really big part to play in leading this for all the reasons we've discussed around measurement and then holding the information that you and everything you need to know your carbon footprint is sitting within your accounting system um your supply chain your bills all of it you know every all your activities it's all there um so, I think it's a really good place to start but I think People need to stop and think, do you want to go to work just to churn through, earn the money, come home and separate that out? Or do you actually want to be remembered for doing the right thing, making an impact, inspiring the teams, listening to people, making people feel good? All of these great things that come with embedding ESG and sustainability. 

Hannah Munro: 32:35 

No, absolutely. And I bet you there's a few of our listeners here that are sitting there going, I love the sound of that. That is what I want to be remembered for. But where should they start? So, how would you approach sustainability in the first place? What could they kick off now in terms of things to plan for the next, say, next 12 months that they should be looking at? 

Lilly Miller: 33:00 

So, the most important thing here is measuring. You have to measure. You've got to get started. You've got to have a baseline of which you can improve upon. So, I think getting a carbon footprint has to be number one. Starting these conversations at board level It's got to come from the top. There'll be loads of people within your organisation that will be thinking, are we doing anything? Because my friends' work are doing something, my husband's work are doing something, and they're part of it. There's an expectation. But actually, the tone has to be right at the top for this to flow down. It doesn't mean everyone at the top has to do something, but they certainly have to be on board, particularly as they're going to be holding the purse strings. So, Start the conversation. I think it should be, you know, we make sure that sustainability and our own sustainability is mentioned at every board meeting. Just that it's brought up. It's a topic of, you know, it makes people go, hang on, switch it on. Have we considered that? along with lots and lots of other topics. I think there's often a fear amongst leaders that, oh, my gosh, we're so, busy trying to run this business and do all these things, and it's a distraction. So, it's something people know they need to do, but they go, oh, just give us another year, just not quite yet. We will look at it. Of course it's important, yeah, but we've just got this problem over here. So, make a start. Get a carbon footprint. Once you understand your impact– You then know where you can begin. And as I say, it doesn't have to be that you fix the whole thing at once. You don't need to be, I mean, brilliant if you can be net zero within the next three, four, five, ten years. Absolutely. The sooner the better. Right. But I think I always think of the Winston Churchill quote, like perfection is the enemy of progress. And it's such an issue in medicine. sustainability people are really scared of sticking their heads up and some are going well you're not green enough um actually your solution isn't 100 perfect um so, must make progress because we don't have time to get it perfect don't have all the technology yet we don't have all the solutions yet but we can make lots and lots of changes which are going to get us so, so, far down the line and so, much better than we are now 

Hannah Munro: 35:09 

yeah and I think it's like anything isn't it is you don't kind of don't want to open Pandora's box because you don't know how bad it's going to be and that's that is a fear right but if you took that approach to finance right if you do want to look in the bank because you were worried about how much money was sitting in there and you know you wouldn't have a business at the end of the day and I think that's I love that I love that's actually one of my favourite quotes that one from Winston Churchill in that you know getting started doing something and actually understanding how bad the problem is gives you an idea of how you know how far you've got to go but also how um imperative it is that you make that change as well so, absolutely love that 

Lilly Miller: 35:48 

absolutely yeah and ask for help I think is it is it a very British thing but it's certainly a people want to be perfect to everything people want to have all the answers um and it takes kind of being bumble and saying do you know what I don't know the answer to that I don't know how to fix this um Has anyone else done this, idea sharing? That's something we see a lot where we've got, obviously, hundreds and hundreds of Planet Mark members. As I said to you at the start, they're all tackling similar problems. There's going to be someone within that community that's transitioned their fleet or has dealt with all these different issues, challenges that come up. So, don't fight things on your own. Ask questions. Admit to not knowing the answer because you can bet that You know what happens when, as soon as you say, even when it's amongst a group of friends, I don't know how to do this or I'm not sure about that. People go, oh, thank God you said that because I don't know either. So, let's all stop pretending that we've got to get it perfect and just... keep on with that progress and keep the conversation going. Start the conversation for some businesses. 

Hannah Munro: 36:53 

Yeah, I think sometimes it is that. And I was really inspired by speaking to a partner that we work with, and they were talking about their journey into sustainability. And in spite, you know, we've only been doing small stuff this year, you know, beach cleans, evaluating our waste policies, but it all makes, I think long term, it all starts to make the difference. So, yeah. So, for those that were like to learn more are there any good resources that you could suggest, or places people could look to find out more about things that they could do and how to approach sustainability within their business. 

Lilly Miller: 37:30 

yeah absolutely I personally um also I have to say the Planet Mark website of course because I'd uh I'd leave and go oh damn um so, it's planetmark.com um that obviously there's further details about what we do um lots of blogs and information and things like that If people– I think the way of the world really is what's on your Twitter feed or, you know, just small bits that you can digest when you're on the train because I could say to you, go and look up legislation X, Y, and Z, but actually are we all going to sit and, you know, read it? I find Bloomberg Green really good. Personally, they're on my Twitter feed. Sky News have also got a green, you know, A lot of the major news channels have these green sections now. So, there's kind of bite-sized information that can just idea generate. And it's just gradually, you know, gradually building up knowledge and awareness. So, a few little changes on your Twitter or your social feeds will probably get you there. get you quite far and yeah do have a little look at the Planet Mark website, or you know there's lots of places you can go and get carbon footprint measurement from so, as long as you get started. 

Hannah Munro: 38:44 

that's it that's the shout out isn't it to everybody listen just get started so, for those that are interested we will post the link to the Planet Mark website in the show notes so, please do click on that and have a look and we'll see if we can root out some of those fabulous social feeds that Lily was mentioning and put those in as well just to make it easy for you so, I want to say thank you Lily. It's been lovely having you on. It's nice to actually speak to a CFO that they themselves are so, passionate about sustainability and even better that you kind of wandered into it and were a convert. I think it really does add sort of fuel for the fire. So, hopefully we might have started that conversion journey for a few of our CFOs that are listening today. So, thank you so, much for sharing your passion for sustainability. I'm sure it would have inspired a few others to take action. So, thank you. 

Lilly Miller: 39:32 

You are very welcome. And one other thing I just thought, if anyone does want to reach out on LinkedIn, I'd be more than happy to share any ideas. It's always quite good to have a community, particularly of finance professionals. I'm here on my own a lot of the time. More than happy to hear from anyone. But thank you so, much for your time, Hannah. 

Hannah Munro: 39:51 

No, it's been lovely to talk. And I think that's the great idea. You know, one of the things, one of my New Year's resolutions was all about building a community and maybe the green and sustainable piece is something that we need to push more within the finance community to start talking about just to open the conversation. 

Lilly Miller: 40:06 

So, that'd be great. 

Hannah Munro: 40:08 

Brilliant. Well, thank you everyone for listening. I'd love your feedback on this episode and everything that we're doing at the moment. Because like I said, we're rethinking things in 2022. It's the year of change. I think for a lot of businesses and a lot of making that shift. So, if sustainability is on your agenda or something else is, please reach out, let me know. I'd love to hear your feedback and thoughts. And thank you again, Lily. And hopefully we'll speak to you soon.