57. Creating a Growth Mindset as a CFO with Tony Shafar

57.Creating a Growth Mindset as a CFO with Tony Shafar 

Hannah Munro : 1:11 

So, hello everybody and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. As usual, I'm your host Hannah Munro. You're going to get Very sick of me saying that because I think we're on something in the region of 50 episodes. So, if you don't know my name by now, I'm a little bit worried. But if you're new, today we're going to be talking about, well, we're actually going to be talking about the role of finance and what that means. So, with me today, I have Tony Schaefer. So, he is an executive coach and also a CFO himself. So, welcome, Tony. Thank you so, much for joining. 

Tony Shafar: 1:45 

Thank you very much. Thanks. Nice to be here. 

Hannah Munro : 1:48 

Wonderful. So, tell us a little bit about yourself, Tony. How did you end up as an executive coach? What was your journey into this role? 

Tony Shafar: 1:57 

Yeah. So, I mean, my journey came down. I'm a qualified chartered accountant and I progressed up the career ladder through a very traditional route, working in practice, then moved into industry and progressed up. the career ladder to become an FD in a large corporate and then a CFO in a smaller business. And I realized through my journey that the technical aspect of the role, it was important to have that, and it was very important to be capable and be knowledgeable in what you're doing. But as I progressed throughout the journey, I realized that that was becoming less and less of importance. And once you got to a certain level, it was almost taken as read that actually that that technical aspect you would be capable of doing or you would be in a position whereby you would surround yourself with the right type of people who could help you fulfil that function. And certainly, you know, the likes of your boss's CEOs wouldn't necessarily even know any of the detail of what you were doing. They would just expect it to be done. And I realized that actually through my own journey that the bigger the bigger thing that would allow you to achieve what you really want was your mindset, was how you approach different situations. When challenges arose, did you avoid them, or did you embrace them? When obstacles came your way, did you use them as an opportunity to learn from them, or did you actually just retreat and hide away from them? And I realized through my own journey of getting some coaching but also seeing other people in similar situations, how the importance of mindset was just such a big factor. It was almost, to an extent, I felt very much ignored and people would just seem, and it was certainly the story that I told myself, it was the cleverest people, you work hard, you do the right thing, and if you're smart enough, you will get to wherever you want to get to in your career. But I knew from my own personal experience through me personally, though also working with a coach, but also seeing others, that I realized that that was a big factor that could really help me and help others grow in their journey. 

Hannah Munro : 4:32 

So, what does that... Obviously, we talked about the technical skill set. So,... What were those other skills that you acquired along the way that you believe actually helped you transition into those senior roles? 

Tony Shafar: 4:48 

Yeah, I mean, I think listening is a hugely important skill, very much in the corporate world, or probably not even necessarily in the corporate world, just in general. People are so, focused on having their turn to speak, and justifying their position in the room. And people don't often listen. You might be sitting in a meeting with four or five other people and someone's just waiting. You're saying something and someone's just waiting for their turn to speak. And you make a point, and they just think, right, okay, I've got to answer this question, or I've got to ask a question around that. And as soon as that happens, they've really, in effect, stopped listening. And they're just, as I said, they're waiting for that split second where there's a gap where they can make their point. So, I know, certainly from my experience and certainly something that I know that a lot of my clients really get value out of is that opportunity to really be listened to, not be judged, and not just given the time to speak, but actually given the time to think. Because very often, if you know you're going to be interrupted, you're going to rush your thinking. You're going to rush your thinking, and that gets clouded, so, you're almost forced to just hurry up on your thinking. So, certainly listening... is a huge thing. But also seeing opportunities, the things that maybe are slightly more challenging as opportunities to grow and learn. So, actually embracing them and not worrying because a lot of people very much will focus on if there's a challenging situation or if they've got to take themselves out of their comfort zone and do something that they've not necessarily done before. There's a real fear of failure around that. There's a fear of judgment. It can be a fear of, I'm not quite sure if I might get found out. And that sort of mentality and that mindset will keep you, will hold you back. It will very much keep you in your comfort zone. Whereas if you can take it more from a perspective where, okay, well, I've never done this before, but it's a good opportunity to learn. It's a good opportunity to try something new and hopefully grow in the process, almost taking like that, very often that child would have at school, that mentality of, right, okay, well, this is, it doesn't matter whether I get it wrong or not. It doesn't matter whether I fail. The bigger, the more important thing for me in this particular situation is to learn. And actually, yeah, it might not work. I work exactly the way I want, but I'm learning from it. Whereas if you're only doing stuff that you're familiar with and that you know that you can definitely do, yes, you're less likely to fail on it, but you're less likely to grow. And I guess if you're ambitious, that comes with other challenges because you'll do the same stuff month in, month out. You're not really growing and you're probably getting quite; you potentially might get quite frustrated. because you're not challenging yourself and you feel that you are capable of more. 

Hannah Munro : 8:14 

Yeah, I guess you're not giving yourself the opportunity to shine as well, isn't it? It's that, you know, it may be something that actually becomes a bit of a passion for you that if you haven't actually given yourself that opportunity or allowed yourself to have that opportunity, then, you know, you're potentially missing out on an area of interest for yourself and also, I guess, the benefit to the organisation as well. 

Tony Shafar: 8:38 

Absolutely, and it's exactly those two things. There's consequences. You hold yourself back. You don't fulfil the potential. But actually, arguably, even more importantly, you're not serving the company. If you're working for an organisation, you're not serving them in the best way because you're capable of so, much more. You could be adding so, much more value to the organisation, but because of this desire to stay safe and avoid... looking stupid or avoid being judged or avoid failing, you're not giving the company the benefit of your knowledge and the benefit of your experience and the benefit of your insight to be able to add that additional value. So, it doesn't really serve. You might think it might serve you, and it will serve you to a certain extent in this. There is obviously comfort in staying safe and avoiding that judgment. But I guess... it's certainly not serving the company. And it probably, if there is a real desire to go and learn new things and be challenged, in the long term, it will just invariably lead to frustration. 

Hannah Munro : 9:52 

Yeah, and I guess if you're not willing to pick up those new challenges, then the company will find somebody that is. So, you know, and it probably, that's quite, you know, it's a combination of short-term mindset, isn't it? As well as, you know, staying in your safe zone could potentially actually be detrimental to your, you know, not just your future progression, but actually not creating the space and the role for you to grow into as well. 

Tony Shafar: 10:23 

Yeah, absolutely. And it all, it will invariably affect your confidence as well because you're starting to question, well, if they don't think I'm capable, they don't. Then you start to question, okay, well, am I actually really capable? Whereas actually, if they see that you have that growth mindset, have that desire and willingness to learn, then they're more likely to embrace you. And they're more likely to have confidence that you can do it as well. Because if you are very much holding back, avoiding all those challenges, your organization will see someone who doesn't really want to take them on. Probably one aspect, but they will start to question actually whether or not you're capable of doing it anyway, because they're not seeing someone who's showing willingness and desire. Because maybe they... their belief might be, well, actually, maybe they don't think they're capable. If they don't think they're capable, well, maybe they're not. And invariably, as you suggested, in certain situations, they might have to find or seek to find someone else who can do that. And certainly, when you're operating and working in a larger corporate environment, that well invariably result in maybe you missing out in promotions you're not getting those opportunities because you're not putting yourself out there you're not taking on you know you're leaving with a mindset of I don't want to look stupid I don't want to make a mistake as opposed to someone else who might have more of a mindset this is a fantastic opportunity to showcase my abilities this is a fantastic opportunity to increase my exposure and show other people what I can do They might be equally capable, but ultimately, the other people, the decision makers and the people within the organization are only going to see what you're actually actioning on. They're not going to necessarily know the details of your capabilities if you're never showing them. 

Hannah Munro : 12:35 

Yeah, and you mentioned a really interesting term around growth mindset, because it's something that gets bandied around a lot, doesn't it? It gets talked about a lot. But what does that growth mindset actually mean for those listeners that may not understand it? What is a growth mindset? 

Tony Shafar: 12:52 

Well, it's very much about the ability to learn new things and the ability that actually, okay, you might be not that great at this, particular thing at this point in time and if you've got the opposite of a growth mindset it's a fixed mindset and it's almost like well I'm not very good I'm not very confident or I'm not very good at speaking to other people and you have that story that you've told yourself that actually well this is the way I am and there's not really anything I can do about that whereas the growth having a growth mindset is more about actually being open to explore that and actually thinking well okay I might not be good at it now but what can I do to improve myself in this area. So, if I want to be more confident, what can I do to make myself more confident? If I want to be better at speaking to other people, having conversations, what can I do? So, they're almost appreciating that, okay, maybe I'm not great at it now, but there's steps that I can be good at it. And that often, more often than not, will require taking action around certain things so, that you can start changing the story that you're telling yourself and changing your belief about that situation. Because if you're not very confident, maybe you're not very confident in presenting to other people, for example, someone in a fixed mindset would do everything that they can to avoid doing presentations. Whereas if you're coming more from a growth mindset perspective, you acknowledge that maybe you're not good at it now, but you'll maybe recognize that the more I do it, the more I'll start to get better at it. And I can see that there is a pathway to me to getting better at it. And then you'll be in a position whereby you'll start putting yourself into positions whereby you start giving yourself more exposure, maybe start presenting to people. Maybe I would suggest in a slightly safer way where it's not, I'm not suggesting you go from never presenting to presenting to, a group of 20 incredibly senior people, because that can obviously have quite an impact on your confidence, but look for small wins, look for small opportunities where you can maybe present to one or two other people, maybe some of your colleagues, you know, peers or colleagues or even your team, instead of just sitting there, you do it in a slightly more presentational type way so, that you start to improve your confidence and start to change that story you're telling yourself about what you are in terms of a presenter, for example. 

Hannah Munro : 15:35 

Yeah. And I think all these concepts that we're talking about in terms of fixed versus growth mindset, I think people underestimate sometimes the importance of that in finance because finance is changing. The role of finance is changing. The technologies that finance are using is changing. So, there's an incredibly volatile world, lots of different skills needed. And if I guess that's one of the challenges at the moment, isn't it? If you have that fixed mindset currently, that you're not going to be able to sort of step forward, both maybe in your existing role, but also into those new and exciting roles that are coming forwards. 

Tony Shafar: 16:16 

Yeah, I think so, And I think, like anything else, I mean, it's... you're dealing with other human beings, aren't you? And it's whether or not you're in finance or in something else, you're dealing with other human beings and people want to just deal with other people. And I think in terms of the mindset around that, being open to the fact that maybe you are more than just finance and you can help people financially, in other areas and it's not just because finance very often get pigeonholed into right okay well there's only certain things and it becomes quite a transactional quite a transactional relationship that okay you can do this you can do this and you can do that whereas actually if you can start to understand a bit more about the organisation and the people in the organisation that you're working with maybe you can start to get to know them a bit better. They can start to develop more of that trust. And then you start to get more of that improving of that relationship, whereby they start to trust you, and you start to understand each other better. And it becomes less of just a support function who do X, Y, and Z, but actually there might be something that we can add value in other ways that you maybe haven't considered before. 

Hannah Munro : 17:52 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it is an interesting concept, but I guess both also, not just the growth mindset for yourself, but also for your team members as well. But before I sort of explore that with you, so, what are the things, if you're sitting there going, this sounds rather familiar, I am that person that perhaps avoids those new and challenging situations. What are some of the strategies that you can implement to get yourself thinking differently? 

Tony Shafar: 18:26 

So, I would say firstly I would say the more you can start to think about it as an opportunity to learn and an opportunity to grow and before when you're starting to think about it. You're thinking, I've got this to do. I've never done it before. You're focusing very much on the negatives. You're focusing on what might go wrong. Will I look stupid? Will I be judged? Will I not be able to answer the questions? But if you can focus more on, right, this is a great chance to learn. This is a great chance to grow. That's one thing that I would suggest. I would also think about it from a trying to look at it more from the company's perspective. So, when you're holding back and wanting not staying in your comfort zone and not wanting to take on a challenge for the reasons that I've mentioned, you're very much thinking about yourself. You're thinking about, right, I don't want to look stupid. I don't want people to judge me. I don't want it to affect my career. But if you can start thinking about the company and how you can be adding value to the company, You're thinking less about yourself, and that starts to take away some of that, the emotional hang-up, and it starts to allow you to maybe think, right, okay, well, what would I do if it was in the best interest of the company? So, you're thinking more about the company, which is ultimately what your job is. Wherever you sit within the organization, your job is to is to do what's best in the best interest of the company. And the more you can do that, the more you can start to think about that, the more you'll start to converse in that way. And the more you'll start to be thinking, and it just means, sometimes it means different conversations become actually slightly easier because it's not about you or it's not about them, which quite often can stop us having slightly difficult conversations because sometimes you might think, well, I don't agree with them, but I don't want to say what I think about this because I might offend them and they might get upset and it might come back to me and I don't want this conflict. Whereas actually, if you can think about it more from the perspective of the company, you might start to converse in that way whereby you are talking about what would be in the best interest of the company. I think the company could benefit from that. So, it's just toning down the emotions from your but potentially the other person's perspective. So, I would say that. And then the other thing that I would say in terms of moving more to that growth to fix mindset is curiosity. And, you know, very often... you will hold back on saying certain things or you hold back on doing certain things because you're not quite sure of the answer or you have to have the right answer or you're maybe attached to the outcome and you know you can't necessarily deliver or you're not very confident you can deliver on that outcome. But if you can get a bit more curious as to maybe what the other people were thinking, what's going on in their world, what are their challenges, then that very often it takes quite a bit of the pressure off because, again, it's less about you and it's more about if they're disagreeing with you in a particular subject and you're reluctant to raise that or reluctant to say anything about it for fear of the response, even if you believe that your perspective is correct, maybe by getting curious around that, and just really trying to understand where they're coming from will start to allow you to open up more because you'll feel more and you're more prepared to learn, you're more prepared to grow in that conversation as opposed to having that fixed mindset, okay, I'm right, this is the way it is and I want to prove to them that I am right but I feel uncomfortable about doing it because I can see conflict further down the road. So, there's sort of three elements that I would say are probably worth thinking about. 

Hannah Munro : 22:53 

Yeah. And that curiosity piece almost goes back to your earlier point about listening, isn't it? Listening and understanding the other person's point of view. You know, if you feel like there's a challenge to be made, actually spending, like you said, spending the time actively listening rather than sitting there, you know, debating whether you should or shouldn't make your point in the first place. 

Tony Shafar: 23:17 

Absolutely. And, and, and it's not listening for the sake of listening. It's listening from a real place of genuine curiosity. And we're so, focused so, often on, I want to make my point. I want to justify my existence. I want people to see how clever I am. When actually, when you come from a place of really listening, you learn far more because you're not When you're focused on making your point and focused on trying to let people know how clever you are, you're not learning anything because you've got your mind and what the right answer is or what the best solution is. And you're closed off to other perspectives, even though you might be hearing, you're not really listening. Whereas actually, if you almost say, right, well, this is my perspective, but I'm going to really understand where they're coming from. I'm going to put my thoughts aside and really explore. You might find there's a different way. You might find actually very quickly there's certain things that you didn't quite appreciate and that you didn't know, which starts to change your perspective on something because you thought, oh, well, no, they're definitely not right because of X, Y, and Z. But they might have knowledge about something that you didn't know about. And as a result, by being open to that, you will invariably learn and you'll learn more, but also you become more trusting. People are more likely to listen to you and it just unquestionably will improve the relationship and the dynamic between you and the other people because I think, I don't know the number one, but I think being listened to and being really felt that you're being heard is such a is such an important part of building a good relationship. 

Hannah Munro : 25:20 

Absolutely. And I think people underestimate the value of relationships, especially in finance. Numbers are important. Data is incredibly important. But relationships, and when we're shifting into that business partnering mindset, that's where they actually, in some ways, almost... you know, there's, there's the three pillars, isn't there? There's, there's relationships with those that you're supporting. There's the, the strategic and the strategic view. And then there's the data and the, you know, the analysis that supports that. So, yeah, no, I love that. That's a, that's a great point to make. And, and for those, you know, curiosity, I love how you mentioned that you couldn't have timed it better. We actually, the podcast that's come, the last podcast we did was actually with Paul Vanderwal. It's all about curiosity. So, So, you know, you couldn't have timed that comment any better to be fair. So, for those listening, definitely check it out. We did a whole podcast just on curiosity and the importance to CFOs. So, that's a great one. So, I just want to take this view. almost from the opposite side and flip it a little bit. Because we talked a lot about self-development, building your own capacity for growth and fixed mindset. But it's not just you that's important to have that mindset, is it? It's actually the wider team. And if you're managing a team of individuals, you're going through a huge amount of change. That concept of fixed and growth mindset becomes so, much more important. So, what can you do as a finance leader, as a CFO to actually help your team develop their own mindsets and to build that culture of a growth mindset? 

Tony Shafar: 27:03 

yeah I completely agree I mean I think it's to a certain extent you're only as good as the team around you and if you've got people who are very who are not very who are very fixed not very open it becomes challenging and I would say it's leading by example as a leader and the more The more open you are as a leader, the more vulnerable you are about the sort of challenges that you're facing. Okay, yeah, I don't know the answer to this. But just being open, I don't know the answer to this. This is the direction I think we should go, but I'm happy to be proved wrong. I don't know. I don't know. I failed at being open about when you've had failures in the past. Because if you embrace your failures and you're open about it, you're creating a culture whereby people recognize and realize it's okay to fail. It's okay because my boss has failed. He or she has acknowledged the fact that they failed, and they've learned from it. Whereas if you're not sharing any of that, everyone just sees the leader and they think, oh, well, I can't fail because they've never failed or I don't know that they've ever failed. So, if I fail, they're not going to be happy with me they're going to be disappointed and it almost encourages that culture of hiding up hiding your failure so, what it does is it prevents creativity it prevents trying things differently because you know because you're so, you're so, focused on learning sorry you're so, focused on getting it right it's almost like there's three elements to it it's One is in terms of what you're working to. Are you working to perform? So, is it all about performance? Is it all about learning? Or is it all about enjoying? And if you take all those three, you know, how you are as a leader, if you're all about performance and your mandate, have you done this, have you done this, have you hit this target, then that's the culture around that you will create. Whereas if you come very much from the, a combination of all three. Okay, are you enjoying? What can we do to ensure that we're enjoying work? You know, what can we do to ensure that we're learning about it? Okay, it's important. We need to have some deliverables around that to make sure because without that we can't achieve whatever. But I think the more open and authentic you are as a leader, the more it's going to encourage people around you because I really believe people won't, they will do as you do, not what, not do as you say. And I think giving them that permission and encouraging it and really being, you know, really, really being open and sharing the challenges you've faced now, but also when you were maybe back in their shoes now, X number of years ago will definitely encourage people to be more open and encourage people to be prepared to get it wrong, which is very much around a key part of that growth mindset, that ability, not that ability, but that recognition that it's okay to not get it right all the time. It's more about learning and growing on the journey. 

Hannah Munro : 30:47 

And that's a hard balance, isn't it? Because I think there is something about individuals in finance that things can't be wrong. The numbers have to be right, what you put forward. So, that's a really hard concept, I think, for those, particularly more on the technical side, to accept and understand. So, how do you balance the need for things to be right with the ability for people to fail and learn from it? How do you strike that balance in finance? 

Tony Shafar: 31:16 

Yeah, I mean, I think there are certain times where probably, you know, it is quite black and white. But again, coming back to that openness and being open to the fact that there might be situations I want to try something a bit different here. It might not be right. We might not get it right first time. And that's within finance, but that's also to the wider business as well. And just being more open. and saying, okay, well, maybe we go down this route and considering, well, if it doesn't work out in the way that we want it to, what are the implications around that? So, almost having an appreciation when it is okay to take slightly more risks and what the impact on the business if it doesn't quite work, if it's not quite right. Whereas there will be certain situations where it is a bit more black and white. And this is not really a time to learn. This is not really a time. This is very, very much a time to focus on growing. Sorry, on just getting it right and ensuring it's correct. But I think it can't be like that all the time. Because then you're very much focused on, right, it has to be. And there's that fear developing people are not growing, people are not learning. Whereas if people have an appreciation that, okay, there is that balance and what I sort of talked about before, but having that balance, seeing the right time where it's time to learn. the right time to when it's focusing on enjoying what they're doing and the right time to focus on really ensuring they're performing in the right way, there can be a balance. And I think with that, that getting that balance, people feel, staff will feel more motivated. They will feel more inclined to realise that it's not just all about performance. Because very often the performance is... you know, it's the performance of the company. And for a lot of people, it becomes, they get less emotionally attached to that because it's, if you're working for a large organization, it's about delivering numbers month in, month out. You become less attached financially; you become less emotionally attached and there comes a point where it's in it for me. Whereas actually, if they're enjoying what they're doing and they're learning on it, it's about helping develop them and promote good culture within the organization so, it is a nice place to work and they want to continue to be there and they want to learn and they also want to help perform and move the business in the right direction so, I think the more balance you can have that and that and that comes from you know all areas it's not just you know It's not just the most senior person, the most junior person, it's just it's throughout and it's adopting that open culture and open dialogue that for me will encourage that good balance. 

Hannah Munro : 34:35 

And I think there's a couple of points I'd just like to illustrate. You talk about an open culture, and I think that is sometimes one of the challenges in all sorts of organizations, but particularly finance, being able to acknowledge when you're not quite sure how to handle a situation. Sometimes the fear comes not from the fact that you're not willing to take it on, but actually not willing to admit that you don't know how to handle it. And I think that's from a risk perspective, I think that's one of the things we underestimate How open are we to allowing our team to acknowledge when they have challenges and they don't know how to address them? And are you that person they could come to for support in making sure that when they do, they don't set themselves up for failure in the first place? 

Tony Shafar: 35:24 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that very much is around how you are how open you are and how genuinely authentic you are in terms of, right, my door is open and, or, you know, I'm open to, if you've genuinely got, and if you get a sense that maybe in the conversation, you get a sense that they're slightly unsure, you get a sense there's a slight bit of nervousness, and that's about really listening to them. And again, that's about being curious and really just, not just saying, right, go away and do it, just genuine, because genuinely, I think if you really take the time out to really listen and really empathize with them, you will probably get a sense of whether or not they're holding something back. And you'll probably get a sense of, right, okay, well, I'm not really sure that you feel entirely comfortable with it. So, that's one thing. And the other thing is, as we were talking about before, just being open yourself. If you create a culture whereby you're open and you're honest about what you can't do and the challenges you've faced in terms of getting, pushing through things that you weren't necessarily sure about, you're creating that environment whereby people are mindful and are accepting that it's okay to put your hands up and say, I don't know what I'm doing or I'm not quite sure how to do that because you do it three or four other people in your team have done it. So, you've really created that healthy, safe place that people can do that. And it's also about actually being maybe a bit, you know, letting people know the risks of not doing that. So, actually saying it's not that we want to create, we want to ensure that you do that. If you're not feeling comfortable about it, we need you to ensure. So, really proactively going out because what you don't want to be, it's not great for the company, but it's also not great for the individual if they're in a position whereby they are just keeping something to themselves. They know that they can't do it. They're feeling very uncomfortable, but doing it, chances are there'll be a mistake around that, and they don't feel that element, if you like, of psychological safety because they're just so, worried about admitting that they can't do it. So, I think it really is around creating and helping create that real open and safe space to allow people to be honest about what they're thinking and feeling. 

Hannah Munro : 38:14 

Yeah, some great points there. So, if I just, because if I just sum up what we've talked about, because there was loads of great points. So, I loved your concept of, you know, active listening particularly with your team and you know actively listening empathizing and understanding what they're saying um leading by example by acknowledging maybe gaps in your knowledge or new challenges that you're not quite sure how you as a leader can address and like you say creating that open book culture you know encouraging um others and perhaps not rewarding, but not discriminating against them because they come to you with those challenges as well. So, some great points, both from a personal perspective, but also when you're thinking of your team. Is there anything I've missed on that list? 

Tony Shafar: 39:08 

No, I mean, I think that's pretty much it. I mean, I think that the more open you are, it is... It's leading by example, doing as you do, not as you say. And realizing that it's okay not to know it all. It's okay. No one expects you to know it all. And trying, allowing, creating that environment to try things that you don't necessarily know whether you're going to be able to do. going to be able to achieve in the way that you do in the way that you think because if you don't encourage that people are not going to people will just stay in their comfort zone they won't try new things because they're leading in their mind with a fear of getting it wrong yeah 

Hannah Munro : 39:59 

now I love that so, there may be a few listeners that are listening to this and going I 

Tony Shafar: 40:05 

I 

Hannah Munro : 40:05 

I think this is me or this is my team. And if they're looking for some help and they're looking for some advice on how to address this, where can they find you? How can they find out more about the support that you can offer? 

Tony Shafar: 40:20 

Yeah. So, I'm on LinkedIn. Obviously, my name is Tony Schaefer. So, I've also got a website, www.schaefercoaching.com or you can contact me by email on tony.schaefercoaching.com. and I would be more than happy to have a conversation with someone just to understand a bit more help them get a bit more clarity on what it is what stories they may be telling themselves what it is that's maybe holding them back and they want to be doing things a lot of people say I should be doing things but there's a reason that you're not and having that open and honest conversation and really listening to that giving them that space to really listen to them can certainly help some people if they're open to it. So, I'd be more than happy to do that. 

Hannah Munro : 41:11 

Yeah, and I would always say that sometimes there is a special place for having somebody outside of an organisation to run these things past because without the... with, what's the word, without the politics of, you know, the internal politics involved, you're able to step away from the solution, you know, from the issues and address that as a solution. So, yeah, for those that have never been through or had any coaching or external advice in this sort of room, it can really add some value. So, thank you so, much, Tony, for joining us. And I hope, for those of you listening, I hope you took some advice away, maybe some tips or maybe just some food for thought And I'd love to hear from our audience if you've got any further advice, any suggestions or any thoughts on the topics we covered today. I'd love to hear it. So, thank you again, Tony. Brilliant to have you on the show. 

Tony Shafar: 42:05 

Thanks very much, Anna. Very much enjoyed the conversation.