52. How technology can enable hybrid working for finance teams - with Paul Lee, Partner at Deloitte

52. How technology can enable hybrid working for finance teams - with Paul Lee, Partner at Deloitte

Hannah Munro: 1:11 

Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. With me today is Paul Lee from Deloitte. He is the Global Head of Tech, Media and Telecom. So, welcome, Paul. Lovely to have you on the 

Paul Lee: 1:25 

It's great to be here. Thank you for having me. 

Hannah Munro: 1:27 

So, well, firstly, it's obviously tech and, you know, spend on communication and devices is a big topic for CFOs generally, especially in this world of hybrid working. But before we get into the depths of the research, tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you end up at Deloitte? What was your journey? 

Paul Lee: 1:49 

Sure. The first thing to mention is I never planned to be here. And I have to confess I've only ever written one application letter during my career, which was when I was 18. And I applied for a pre-university role at a big, big tech company, which at that time was one of the largest in the world. And I wrote two sheets of A4 handwritten saying, this is why I want the job. And I got it. And everything after that has largely been fortuitous or it's been in response to a phone call or a conversation. So, I've been at Deloitte for 20 years and I've always had this role of looking at what's happening within the tech and telecom space with media added to it. And the reason why I took this role was because I've always been very interested in technology. And every role that I've had has enabled me to understand it more. And the role at Deloitte was basically to understand what's happening in the industry and to talk to clients about it. So, there's no requirement to manage specific projects or specific accounts. So, in a typical non-COVID year, I would meet with about 100 different clients in about 20 countries around the world and share with them how I see the market changing and also get from them their views of what they see happening in the market. And technology has become far more interesting and also complex over the last 20 years. And so, the need to be able to meet with people and talk to them about what they're seeing is really important. But, you know, essentially, I kind of stumbled into what I'm doing but also, I've guided obviously sort of the direction that I've got in as well. 

Hannah Munro: 3:48 

Yeah, I think some of the most interesting jobs are the ones that you don't get given when you leave school. I think half of the most interesting jobs aren't even on the jobs or careers list for most people to be very fair. So, you mentioned obviously Covid and that I would assume is having a massive impact on the sector in which you work. So, tell us a little bit, what trends and patterns are you seeing or what conversations are you having at the moment with regards to those? I 

Paul Lee: 4:18 

think one of the biggest things at the moment is how are we going to work? And that's particularly the case for office workers. I think we often overlook the fact that most people don't have the option to work at home. And so, there was a time at the peak of COVID when close to half the population wasn't able to work. And of those, a proportion were able to work at home, such as people in my profession, able to work remotely. But one of the big questions is around, so, when everyone's at home, it was kind of a level playing field. Now what we're moving back to is a mixture of people going back to the office and people working from home. And that creates a variation in the environments in which we work. And there are many different personality types. So, there are some people who will work better at when they're working alone. And some of my colleagues who work, for example, in coding or in building apps, being able to do that without distractions is absolutely great. But for other roles, you really benefit from being able to talk to other people. And when we think of being able to work online, we can definitely work online and it's great that technology enables to do that. But when you've got some people in the same physical space, they will communicate in a different way with each other to how those who are online are. And I really noticed that, particularly in the last couple of weeks, where we've been starting to go back and meeting in person. And meeting one-on-one in person is great, but meeting one-to-many in person is something you just cannot replicate online. So, it's like, you know, networking is something that we've always done. And gathering, let's say, 50 people into one room and allow them to mingle and to talk for a minute or 30 and to give out business cards. You know, it sounds quite old-fashioned, but it actually works. is a really powerful thing. So, I think this is going to be one of the big challenges that's going to come up because if you really want to be able to enable people working at home to have the same conditions as those in a physical environment, you need to have much bigger screens, much better microphones, much better lighting, and that's expensive. 

Hannah Munro: 6:56 

Yes, and I think that's the challenge. How do we work in a world where working from home doesn't disadvantage those workers that choose to do that? And what options are there? Is there any solutions to those problems at this stage? Or is it still in the, this is a challenge that we need to fix stage? 

Paul Lee: 7:18 

I think being realistic, we're currently learning What's going to work. And even, let's say, in an office environment where you've got provision to have people who are not there to join, let's say, a group presentation. You've got 20 people in the room, 20 people outside the room. It's just like the human instincts of reflexes that we have. If you're in the room, you'll talk to the people in the room because they're giving the feedback. And so, the one thing about living a life within a rectangle on a laptop screen is that you communicate with your mouth. Mostly what you're doing is it's a phone call with video. And it's not the case that it's a video call, which also has sound. And there's a very important distinction to that. So, people tend to listen to you as opposed to watch you because there's only a bit of you to see. When you've got a meeting in person, you're looking at everything. You're looking at the attire, the posture. You've got lots of small visual cues, like a frown or a furrowed brow. All of those things. are important. All of them are forms of communication, which get lost when you've got the filter of going via a video call. To me, my perception is that it muffles. The way in which you address that is you replicate being in the physical space. So, that means really big screens, not 13-inch laptop screens. It's not the same. But that is expensive. And I know of some people who've got very large screens at home, but they tend to have the space to be able to do it and the funding to be able to do it. And that's not for everyone. So, that's one big question is, what is the cost of providing a fully hybrid work environment? And one of the things to add in there is just how do you deliver perfect connectivity? And in some markets, what you've got is separate packages for people who are working at home. So, you kind of ring fence the connectivity for the people who are working versus those who are on Fortnite or on YouTube. But there are very few companies which are doing that. Technologically, that's quite easy to solve. It's really easy to solve. So, the audio is easy to solve in that regard in all the connectivity. But the video is really, really hard to solve. 

Hannah Munro: 10:00 

Yes, and certainly, I guess it also depends where in the country they are, because there is a degree of change, isn't there? Depending on where you are in the country, access to good broadband and decent connection speeds can be a real challenge. So, what sort of options do we have around to address that? Are there any new technologies coming through that can maybe change that for those in more remote areas? 

Paul Lee: 10:26 

Yeah, so, in terms of those in very remote areas, it’s about 5% of the UK, which would have what you could call low-quality broadband. And so, one of the challenges for people who don't have the best broadband is often income-related. So, when we look at all the people– so, in the UK, about 94% of households have got a broadband connection. And 70% of them are what's called superfast. There's 30 megabits per second or more. So, they can sustain easily a call like this. But you've got fluctuations in the performance. For other people, what tends to be the challenge is the affordability of the better connectivity. Also, what's coming through is, so, 4G, which is about 10 years old, but it hasn't reached the entire country, is being rolled out more and more. And that is good enough for a call like this. So, those technologies are rolling out. Fiber is also being rolled out to more and more homes. And that can deliver effectively any speed you want it to. So, if you wanted to be able to have screens which were six foot tall and 12 foot wide, then a fibre connection would be able to deliver that. Just even probably half the homes could actually have that kind of connection right now. So, the average download speed in the UK are about 80 megabits per second. So, that's all fine. And then, you know, there's also new technologies coming in like 5G. But currently, that's really focused on the busiest areas because for consumers and also for office workers, you don't really need to have 5G. The speeds are in excess of what's required. So, 5G is more about providing solutions into industry where you might need a few hundred megabits per second as a connection and have that utterly reliable and unlikely to be interrupted. 

Hannah Munro: 12:44 

So, it sounds like in terms of connectivity, the UK is actually quite well geared up to allow it if, you know, apart from that 30% that don't quite have the required speeds. And you talk about screens. So, are you envisaging a world where actually remote workers will have, like you say, six-foot screens at home so, that they can participate standing up perhaps in a network meeting? Is that where the technology could potentially go? Yeah. 

Paul Lee: 13:12 

In terms of screen size, so, one of the things which happens with the technology is that with every year, things get cheaper. Or put another way, for the same spend, you can get more and more. And you see that with the cadence of, let's say, smartphone releases. Every year you get sort of a more powerful chip. So, that's more transistors. So, currently 16 billion in a single chip. And so, with TV screens, every year for the same spend, you get a big screen. You get higher resolution. So, we are moving to steadily dedicating entire walls to screens. Now, that always sounds preposterous because people go, but what about my books and what about my ornaments? And the reality is because we spend so, much time using TVs and because the input is getting better and better in terms of the calibre of content that's been created for TV, televisions will spread. They'll get larger. The bookshelves will get knocked away and the books will get sent to, I don't know, the attic or the basement or whatever, because that's what's been happening for the last decade. Always to a cause of disapproval from book readers, but normal people who watch TV. So, one of the ways in which you do get to that ability to do hybrid working is to have those very large screens. And I think currently for... About 500 pounds, you can buy a 65-inch screen. That's not six foot tall, but that's about four foot high. And at the diagonal, it's sort of bigger than me. I'm not that tall either. But it gives you an idea of what we're going, what we're getting to in terms of screens. And the colour saturation, the degree of light that can be replicated on the screen, it just gets better and better all the time. 

Hannah Munro: 15:11 

Fantastic. So, that's quite an interesting trend. And as you say, you know, as you think about it, yes, my TV has gone bigger every couple of years, to be very fair. So, and yeah, you know, I still remember my first computer monitor, which was about this deep. And yeah, I won't try to age myself by telling you, you know, I think my first laptop was black and white, to be very fair. We didn't even have colour in those days. So, that's a little bit, a little bit scary. So, moving on from the history, I guess. So, what are the trends and patterns are you seeing? Is there anything else that you're seeing that could help support that hybrid working environment? And what do CFOs, what do employers need to think about and how they support their employees with that? 

Paul Lee: 16:04 

Yeah. So, one of the things which is really important, not just for CFOs, but I think for all management is, is to recognise the variety or the heterogeneity of different types of worker. And, you know, prior to COVID, certainly, you know, those who are working at home were always regarded with a bit of disdain. So, it's a bit like somebody leaving at, say, 5 p.m. would often get the comment, oh, are you sort of heading off early, aren't we? Or someone working at home on a Friday, common comment would be, are you expecting deliveries? Are you heading off for a long weekend? And the reality is some people just work better at home. So, that's one thing that we need to recognise. The second thing is types of work really vary. The third element is in-person communication for a lot of people is something that is really important. And there is no technology that can replicate it. like networking, there is no technology that can replicate it. That's just where we are at the moment. And I've tried things like, say, using avatars within virtual environments. And it's amusing, but it's nothing like the immediacy of human communication because we've spent in our lives, working lives, might be years, often decades, honing our ability to network, to meet people, to find out things, to convince people. And it doesn't work online and it's just where we are. And so, there are some things that you just can't replicate. So, being pragmatic about what's possible, I think is really important. And then there is another element which is fascinating, contentious, controversial, which is how do you keep workplaces safe, right? So, the challenge is you want people to go back into the office. You want them to be productive. You don't want them to get infected with COVID. And the reality is we will probably be coexisting with coronaviruses for some time to come. So, it's not that we're going back to the end of 2019. We are still in that phase. And when I look at different markets, so, in the US, I think by the end of August, about 20% of corporates were looking to require proof of antibodies, so, vaccines or having had COVID, to enter a place of work. And I read in one survey, which was run at the end of August, by the end of the year, 50% of employers in the US were expecting to mandate that. And also going to places like, say, hospitality. So, I was looking at one app, Yelp, which is also available in the UK. So, if you look at Yelp in the filters, you can require that. So, you can filter for restaurants where you have to show COVID status. And secondly, where all the staff have had two jabs. In London, I couldn't find any. San Francisco, hundreds, right? Wow. So, at what point does that come through? So, one of the things for CFOs and others to consider is what are the COVID protocols that we require and what are the technologies which will enable it? How do you create, in a secure way, a database of information that's up-to-date about COVID status. And I've heard from lots of people infuriated that they've gone into a workplace and unwittingly exposed themselves to somebody who's later said that they're infectious because they hadn't tested. So, how do you maintain a safe working environment? I think that's one of the biggest challenges which is out there because the whole issue of being vaccinated is also political. It's emotional. It's challenging. Understanding how vaccines work is not something that people have to learn to enter a workplace. And it's in many regards counterintuitive, the idea that you inject a small amount of a disease into you to create a reaction in your body to create the defences against it. You have to have an understanding of science to understand it. And that's something which I think is very important, is to be able to explain to people who just the scientific background don’t have to understand why vaccines are important. 

Hannah Munro: 21:09 

And also, I guess the difference the tracking of that status and the enforcing of that, it can be a real challenge. And I think that's one of the areas I think businesses are concerned and looking at. And it sounds like the US is a little bit ahead of the UK in that, to be very fair. So, talking of differences between the UK and the rest of the world. So, we talked very much about the connectivity within the UK. How does that work across the pond, how are other countries set up for remote working? Is there anything that they are doing better or is the UK ahead of the game in that respect when it comes to infrastructure? 

Paul Lee: 21:51 

So, at one level, so, the UK is behind lots of the rest of Europe in terms of fibre connections. But the thing about a fibre connection is it gives you whatever speed you want. And you don't need whatever speed you want. So, the UK has used an approach in the last 10 years, which is called fibre to the cabinet, which is whereby you bring fibre closer to a premise. And then the last bit is done over copper. So, it's like a booster. And then even though copper slows it down, it still... It's still fast enough for most applications. And that's one reason why, in terms of resilience for doing calls like this, then the UK's infrastructure is absolutely fine. I mean, to be honest, when you look at a lot of the video calling apps, they require about three megabits per second. And if you're able to watch Netflix or Amazon Prime, you're using a faster speed. all that. So, video calling is not the most demanding of applications. It's less tolerant of interruption, i.e. when you lose signal for a bit because you have to get back in again. But it's not the hardest. In terms of what happens in other countries, what I'm aware of is most countries are using quite similar software and their big question is around, so, we've had 18 months of using great platforms. What is the next thing that they should do? Should they double up on all the homeworking software or do they redirect investment into offices, which already have invested in already? And in many cases, you won't want to do both. You've got to make a choice as to where you allocate your capital. And I think that's one of the big decisions to come. 

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Hannah Munro: 24:36 

And have you, when you're speaking to people, has there been any noticeable trends about where people are investing and more conversations about how do we gear people up for hybrids? So, the ability to do both or gearing to focus people back in the office. Has there been any interesting trends around that at all? 

Paul Lee: 24:56 

I think it's quite; it's a little bit too early. to determine because we're still in this phase where we don't know what's going to happen in a month's time. So, it's not as bad as not knowing what's going to happen next week, which is how it's felt at certain times of the year. But it's still uncertain. So, bigger trends which are coming through are around deploying new technologies. So, like Wi-Fi 6, which is the next version of Wi-Fi. and also, 5G into environments where wireless connectivity didn't work before because the standards weren't up to it. So, this would be, for example, in Germany, there are now hundreds of manufacturing companies which are sort of effectively mini 5G operators. So, they have a license to run a 5G network on their campus, so, on their manufacturing sites. And they're using that to automate processes or to generate more information from their existing processes. That's part of the move to Industry 4.0. or the reinvention of manufacturing is by having much better connectivity and better because it's wireless. So, I'm tethered, and I'm constrained as opposed to wired, which makes the environment more inflexible. 

Hannah Munro: 26:19 

And you mentioned Wi-Fi 6. How does Wi-Fi 6 differ from the existing Wi-Fi that's available? 

Paul Lee: 26:25 

Yeah, and Wi-Fi's nomenclature is really weird because it goes from like A to B to... And now it's going to 6. And there wasn't a Wi-Fi 5, as far as I'm aware. But Wi-Fi 6, but basically what happens over time is speeds get faster over wireless connections. The latency, the speed at which the network reacts gets shorter. So, decisions... can be communicated a lot faster. And the number of connections you can have in a certain area become a lot greater. So, what that means is that you can start getting information from anything up to the limit of one million objects per square kilometre. So, if you imagine, let's say in a factory, every single tool can be connected, and you can generate information on its status. So, if it needs to repair or if it's starting to overheat, that can be communicated back to them centrally so, that machine can be taken out of use before it explodes, but can be taken out of use and then maintained and fixed. So, at the moment, which doesn't really happen. because you don't have that ability to connect everything. But that's one thing that Wi-Fi 6 and 5G enables. It's just a lot more connections. And if you applied it, let's say, to every wagon on the train or every river on a bridge, then you start collecting a lot more data and you can do a lot more preventative maintenance as opposed to fixing things which have broken because you weren't aware or because it was too hard to gather that information. 

Hannah Munro: 28:13 

So, it's basically extending the number of connections that are available within a given area. as well as obviously accommodating the additional speeds that we're starting to get that's exciting I guess from a warehousing perspective that you know for those you know carrying on that theme of manufacturers and managing warehouses and you know all of that technology that's now coming through that offers some really exciting opportunities 

Paul Lee: 28:43 

yeah, and one of the things which is going to become possible for example with 5G is the ability to have a lot more automated vehicles so, within factories. So, because of the ability to know where different objects are or different machines are, so, you can... enable them to get from A to B and for them to work out a route for them to get to A to B. But also, for a controller to know where each of those is at any point in time. So, you can get indoor navigation accuracy down to about 10 centimetres. And so, in lots of warehouses currently, what you have is like a track on the floor. And the machines follow that. But with 5G, then the machines can become a lot more autonomous. So, what that means is that you can have, for example, in the car manufacturer, you can have parts being brought to a car which has been built. via an automated trolley, as opposed to have somebody push it, which is what you have in lots of legacy factories. So, it enables more and more automation. And to your point around warehouses, one of the major costs is going to be labour. Automating a lot of those processes can be a lot more cost effective. It's not always, but it's often more cost effective. 

Hannah Munro: 30:06 

That's exciting. And I guess there's a whole podcast to be done just on manufacturing and manufacturing 4.0, to be very fair. It's a personal interest of mine, so, I won't bore you with all my questions, but that's a fascinating piece. So, coming back to our topic initially of hybrid working, one of the questions we didn't dig into is actually personal devices, because it's an interesting trend and we're having lots, I can say we're having conversations internally about how we how we manage that, you know, as we swap from home to work and how with the increase in obviously cyber security requirements that come with remote working. What sort of, are there any trends that you are seeing around how that is being handled by businesses or is there any technology coming through to change the way that we're using devices and what are the patterns we're seeing? 

Paul Lee: 31:02 

Yeah, so, one of the homework-inspired trends that's come through is better webcams. And for a long time, a laptop was designed to be able to work anywhere. And if you were to have interactions, it would often be face-to-face. And the great thing about the laptop, it would give you the flexibility to touch on it every now and then. And so, they would have rather, say, flaccid or weak webcams as a result because there was no point in differentiating the webcam because people didn't use them. But now they're becoming a lot better. So, the calibre of those cameras is getting a lot greater. So, that's one enabler for working at home more readily. But it's just a small one. And enterprises aren't going to upgrade an entire laptop just for a webcam. It's more something that will come through unless your work requires you to have a very, very good webcam and you buy it externally. So, other things which I think will come through are there is better and better... removal of clutter from the audio signal. So, I think a lot of us have worked at home and just found that the people opposite are building sort of like a two-story basement for the next year. And the ability to suppress all that extraneous noise is getting very, very good. And so, one thing people might find is that even though they can hear the noise of drilling, the people that they're talking to can't. So, the algorithms for detecting what is a human voice and deleting everything else are getting better and better. So, that's also known as noise cancellation, but it's just identifying what the voice is for that. And I also think that, so, one of the things which is becoming better is, you know, so, when we speak in in person, we're used to standing and moving around. And what's getting better in some of the technology out there is the ability for the camera to track All the cameras to track where you are. And so, there's lots of new tablets, which you may use, or even smartphones, where if you move around, you'll get tracked. I won't move around now because I'll go out of frame. But with some of the other devices that I'm using, so, I'm going to move around, then the camera follows. And it just feels a bit more natural for some people. And it could also be irritating at times if you move around too much. But the ability to track and zoom in, I think is getting a lot better as well. 

Hannah Munro: 33:53 

I think one of the challenges certainly that I've noticed on using like Teams and Zoom, et cetera, is the ability to have a conversation with somebody and look at the camera. So, that's an interesting piece. Is there any technology coming through that can, you know, help with the eye contact, you know, one of those key tenets of communication. 

Paul Lee: 34:17 

Yes. So, there are algorithms which have been around for some time, which, you know, for example, if you're looking away, it can change your eyes. So, it looks as if you're looking at the person. 

Hannah Munro: 34:30 

Okay. 

Paul Lee: 34:31 

And so, when some of these were introduced, it was regarded as creepy. But now I just think it's, it just makes life easier. And the reality is we have always applied makeup. Men less so, but with technology, that's what you can do. So, filters enable you to change your appearance. So, on some of the apps, you've got, for example, the ability to remove lines from your face. And then sometimes I'll move to another app where it doesn't have that, and I'll be shocked at what I'm looking into. It's like an authentic mirror as opposed to one which is like a magic mirror and lies to me and tells me lies, I want to hear. So, all of those things are coming through. I mean, basically, I think that's all positive because what you want is good communication. And if technology can sort of delete your errors, then that's a good thing. I think it's a positive. 

Hannah Munro: 35:41 

Yes, it will. Because certainly I think we're all used to that Instagram world where everything is filtered and looks lovely. And yes, like you say, you dial on to a work meeting and yeah, things aren't quite as lovely as they are if you took it as a photo and edited it. So, that's a really interesting trend and it'll be fascinating to see how well that's received in terms of meetings, etc., and how that goes. Any other thoughts in terms of other trends that you're seeing or you're noticing, or think will come through in terms of remote working or that sort of online meeting environment? 

Paul Lee: 36:23 

I think we've talked about most of the big ones. So, it's bigger screens, better cameras, better software. I have to say, in the last few months, I haven't seen anything remarkable appear. So, most of it is duplicative out there. And I think it's linked to the fact that people are not sure where we're going to end up. Because it won't be everyone working at home because there's too much information available. lost in that space. So, if people who are used to working already have networks, that's all great. But, you know, even things like making a new contact is a lot harder to do online. And so, because we're in that sort of kind of like hiatus period where we don't know what's going to happen next, that's why I think some of these innovations are important. And if you look at, say, some of the biggest let's say smartphone vendors, what they differentiate on is camera quality, which includes stills and also video. And in a world where everyone's moving around, you get to use your technologies a lot. So, do you build for that world and assume that people are going to move around a lot because we've got lots of vaccines out there and we've got more free movement? Or do you optimize for people working at home and doing sort of more calls in a Zoom-type format? But one thing I noticed is the– so, one of the big lockdown successes was a company called– or an app called House party. And that was retired a week ago. And what House party did was it enabled, like, lots of– younger people to have calls with about 20 people. So, like a young version of Zoom, but with loads of people all chatting. So, it's like an update to the party lines that used to exist where you could chat to 20 people at a time. And that was video chat with 20 people at a time. But that was retired just a week ago. So, it will probably come back in another form. But it's possibly a sign of some of the changes coming through. 

Hannah Munro: 38:48 

And I think that's a really important point. There's a difference, isn't there, between gearing up your team and your technology to work on the move versus working at home. There is an interesting trend in certain conversations that were happening about where we're going to be working. Are we going to be working from home? Are we going to be working abroad? You know, and are we going to be back in the office? So, it'll be interesting, like you say, to see what happens over the next 12 to 18 months. And yeah, and I think once people start making decisions, that's when I guess we'll see some of the new innovations coming through to support that particular way of working. 

Unknown: 39:27 

Yeah. 

Hannah Munro: 39:27 

So, for our CFOs and our listeners, so, at the moment we are in the midst and living with COVID. So, let's just finish perhaps on some top tips. How do we enable our teams to work well from home? And so, we talked about it already but just give us a sort of a quick sum up of the key things that we could look at to support our teams. 

Paul Lee: 39:48 

Yeah. So, the first point I'd make is just recognize the heterogeneity of your workforce. That's the first one. And some people were more productive at home, but not everyone. A second thing is, we've gone from mostly working in an office to mostly working at home. And to what extent should there be a mix? And if there is a mix, how do you get the right people in the office on the same days? Is there an algorithm for that? Or is it just easier to try and encourage everyone to come back? A third point to make is if we do move to hybrid working, the environments within the office haven't been designed for that. So, I was doing a talk last week and there were people in the room and people on Zoom. And I literally couldn't see the people on Zoom because they're on the screen behind me. And you can't look both ways. I can't look both ways. I don't have eyes in the back of my head yet. And there was no screen in front of me to show the people who are online. So, the natural reaction is to react to the people who are reacting in front of you because that's where the attention is. I think it would also be very interesting to do a study on productivity levels when people are at home. So, one thing that you lose when you go to the office is commute time. Is commute time... bad for you or good for you. Because what I know some people use a commute for is to think, to stitch ideas together. So, the reason why we dream is to rationalise things that have happened during the day and to create those links, those synapses between them. And the sort of, you know, every small walk or sort of pause enables us to understand what has just happened or what's just been talked about and on occasion react to it. So, one thing I would say is do not regard the commute time as lost time because it is actually very productive. In the same way that daydreaming is very productive because what you're often doing is stitching things together so, the brain never really rests. And also around productivity. So, when you don't commute in, you might save... let's say, a couple of hours both ways. But for some people, when they're at home and there is no one to monitor them, they're more easily distracted. So, it's a bit like giving a kid an iPad and telling them to do their homework and then shutting the door. What do you think is going to happen? And we retain that ability to be distracted constantly. in many cases. So, the key message is to have an open mind and also from a CFO perspective, bear in mind the cost of each approach because replicating an office at home times every employee will be a significant cost if you're going to make it truly equal. 

Hannah Munro: 43:15 

And I also, I guess, adding into that, if you're going for a hybrid model where people could be going both in and out, that could also then add to the cost in terms of having to have the facilities in two places, maybe not double, but having the flexibility to manage and have the space for people to work in the office as well. 

Paul Lee: 43:36 

Yeah, I'd agree with that. 

Hannah Munro: 43:38 

Yeah. And I think it's a really interesting point. And certainly as we found the shift back in around the meeting rooms and how you have hybrid meetings and how, like you say, you manage the, it takes a lot more management, I think, to make sure that you are addressing both the workers from home and also those that are actually in present. Because you're right, it is a natural tendency to focus on those that are in the room with you. As much as you would like to think you're being fair, sometimes it's not quite the same. 

Paul Lee: 44:11 

Yeah. I mean, a reality is, for example, if you've got 16 people who are arranged in the rectangles, they can't look to each other and smile. They can't eye roll. They can't communicate to each other. Yeah. Or as people in the room can do. 

Hannah Munro: 44:30 

Yeah. 

Paul Lee: 44:30 

Right. And it sounds like a cliche, but that nonverbal communication... It's something that you can't dismiss. It's really important. 

Hannah Munro: 44:40 

And I think more important for management because what you can notice is a lot more nonverbal communication happening on chat channels for remote workers rather than necessarily the more obvious catch that you as a presenter can make. So, yes, that's a really interesting thought. So, I'm very sorry, Paul, as much, I think I could go for another half an hour, but I won't, I promise. I want to, you know, it's been a fascinating talk and those last, those last few tips you shared with us were really incredibly useful. So, to all those CFOs out there, I think there's some really interesting insights in terms of managing environments. How do we support both remote and office-based workers and those that want to everywhere, every different type in between? whilst you know ensuring productivity and inclusivity as well I think there's some really interesting thoughts so, thank you again Paul I really appreciate you coming on the show and obviously if anyone wants to learn more about yourself about the research that you're doing where's the best place to go or find out more 

Paul Lee: 45:50 

um you can find me and our research on the web. So, deloitte.co.uk is one destination. But if you just do a search on any search engine that you prefer, you should be able to find what we write about. 

Hannah Munro: 46:04 

Wonderful. Well, thanks again, Paul. Lovely to have you on to the show. And thanks everyone again for listening. And any questions that come out of this, we'd love to hear your thoughts. Any other recommendations for topics, always great to hear what you'd like to hear about next. So, thanks again, Paul. And to our audience. We'll see you soon.