33. How CFOs can use Storytelling to Bring a Strategic Vision to Life with Jack Sweeney

33. How CFOs can use Storytelling to Bring a Strategic Vision to Life with Jack Sweeney

Hannah Munro: 0:48 

Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. Now, a real treat for you all today, we have Jack Sweeney, who is the host of the CFO Thought Leader podcast. So, you may have heard his voice before, but thank you, Jack, for joining us. It's great to have you on the show. 

Jack Sweeney: 1:04 

Yeah. Hey, Hannah, thank you for the invitation, and I'm happy to do it. 

Hannah Munro: 1:10 

Well, I'm quite excited to talk today because one of the things we want to have a chat about is the importance of telling stories in finance. But before we get on to that topic, tell our listeners a little bit about your background because you've been doing this podcasting business for a long while now, haven't you? 

Jack Sweeney: 1:28 

Yeah, I guess so, if you look at the players out there, yeah, I'm one of the early ones, I suppose. But it's only from 2012. I went into it after a print journalism career kind of began to disappear as ad pages disappeared. And I was looking for a new medium to report and actually write, which I enjoy still doing. But yeah, I had to adapt and survive or die. So, we went this path. At the time, I was editor of... a number of different B2B publications in succession. And let me know if you want to go back that path. I can share a few milestones with you, I suppose. 

Hannah Munro: 2:19 

Yeah, because you've done a lot around entrepreneurship and business, not just finance, isn't it? So, tell us a little bit about the different streams you've worked in. 

Jack Sweeney: 2:29 

Yeah, so, I'll try to do this quickly. I don't want to bore your listeners. But I entered journalism back in the late 80s and began writing about tech. And it was the desktop era, so, no internet, no Amazon. So, it was the age of the corner computer dealer, really. And what we wrote about were the computer dealers. I want to mention, too, it's funny looking back now. I always bring this up, but one of the computer dealers who would return my calls, not only mine, but he would also return any reporter's calls, was Mark Cuban, who's today on Shark Tank, of course, and he became a billionaire years later. But Mark was a computer dealer in Texas. with about, I don't know, at one time he had four stores. He kept on growing it, the number of stores, technology solutions. And he even mentions, the magazine I was with was called something Computer Reseller News. He has mentioned it twice on Shark Tank because what he tries to explain to people is that you have to be a thought leader in your space. So, he would always return, not only did he return our calls, he eventually got a column in the magazine because he became such a strong personality and again this is before the billionaire days so, no one really knew who Mark Cuban was if you were selling computers you knew who Mark Cuban was though um so, anyway I share that with you from there I went on to um uh as uh Technology became a little more complex and we leave the desktop era and there are these sort of the client server era. I started writing about large system integration contracts and I was hired by the Washington Post companies to create a magazine called for systems integrators. Now, the Washington Post is down, of course, in D.C., and around northern Virginia is just filled with government contractors and large system integrators. They wanted to begin serving that audience, the same audience, with tech pubs, and I was one of those. Now, the Washington Post got into tech pubs, and then they got out of tech pubs, all within a three-year circle, pretty much. And then I jumped to... A group of entrepreneurs were starting up a magazine called Consulting Magazine. It would be written for you folks, Hannah, really. It was for all consultants, all types of consultants. But it took off like a rocket in the late 90s when there was a lot of venture money supporting ads and startups and dotcoms, to be honest. If you think back, those of us who can, the magazines were never so, fat as they were in the late 90s, but it was really all this dot-com money. So, anyway, we took off like a rocket and that introduced me to the wonderful world of consulting, which I have to say, some of the top consultants are so, dynamic in how they explain things and make people think about ideas. And I was, you know, what a wonderful place to be a reporter because you always had people introducing things to you and how to look at business problems differently. So, I enjoyed that quite a bit. But as we went along, I was offered a position with a finance publication. And I have to say, print ads were already in trouble. And in any case, I jumped to a magazine called Business Finance Magazine. And I was like, oh, no, where have I gone? Because there was no longer all these dynamic personalities trying to point the way for me until I went to a conference and I met I met Jeremy Hope, who many, some people might know, he wrote the Reinventing the CFO. And of course, he was, his group was known as the Beyond Budgeting Roundtable, excuse me. And it's a fairly large organization, global organization. I got to know Jeremy and I got to know, of course, Steve Player, who was the consultant who ran the North American Beyond Budgeting Roundtable. But That book just opened my mind to really how finance leadership roles were changing and writing about finance in sort of an entirely different way. And Jeremy, of course, that book is still so, relevant today, I'd mention. It came out in 2006. But anyway, that sort of put me on the path to looking at things differently. I'll mention one article I wrote at the time, which I thought– I thought it was interesting. I wrote an obituary for the budget. I went back in time, and I gave the whole history as if it had died. And we're talking about 2008. With the financial crisis, everybody's budget is worthless because no one could have projected what was happening. But at the same time, we all knew budgeting was coming to an end in the traditional sense. And so, I wrote this obit, and it died and lived a good life. But everyone agrees it would have been a better life if those processes only lived half as long because they were so, dated. If you look back at how people budgeted, 20 years ago. It's very different today. It's still evolving. And so, many organizations are still doing it poorly. But that's another story. So, anyway, that lands me in the finance world. And that's how I found my, I guess, footing as I became a podcaster and gave up filling print magazines with words. 

Hannah Munro: 8:13 

So, what are some of the Because obviously, you've seen that transition from those years ago into sort of the shift that we're having now in terms of finance. What are the key sort of changes that you've seen? And what are the challenges you think CFOs and finance leaders are actually facing at the moment in terms of where do we go next? 

Jack Sweeney: 8:36 

Well, the... What I find interesting, and again, I kind of work with a standard format, and this helps finance leaders certainly who are pressed for time. It gives them a sense of where I'm going to take them. And one part of where I always like to take them is, is what I refer to as lines of sight into the organization. It's kind of broad, but I'm talking about metrics. What numbers are you looking at? What are you measuring? And particularly, non-gap metrics. And particularly, we see this integration happening with gap financials and non-gap metrics coming in. So, how did you structure your dashboard? Where did you put that number? Having these types of conversations, I'll say, okay, you want to raise the profile of a certain metric within the organization. How do you go about doing that? Or how do you go about convincing people sales, that they need to be paying closer attention to profitability. That's an obvious one. But there's so, many other types of areas that finance is trying to gain mindshare with parts of the organization today. How do you do that? So, finance leaders come forward with some really interesting comments at that place and time. Again, I keep it really broad. I try to get them to take me there. But what I would tell you is it's the digitizing of business. It's the measurements. New measurements are coming forward all the time. And the obvious place is the customer relationship measurements. I call it customer-centric finance. There's so, many ways finance leaders are discovering how to– interpret customer behaviours. And they have a wonderful view into that world. And again, depending upon how organizations are structured, there's their customer success organization. Often today, there are other ways. This is most obvious in the SaaS world, but The SaaS world is kind of pointing the direction for every industry now in terms of how to optimize and measure customers. And SaaS obviously has the lines of sight to really optimize customers. Whereas other industries are a little more challenged, but it's changing. And finance leaders know that's part of what they're supposed to be doing. How can I figure out how this business is performing in a way that we didn't know existed before, given all these tools we now have? So, anyway, that's where I love to take them. I'll begin with that opener. where I always do. What are the experiences you feel prepared you for a finance leadership role? But I'll be candid with you. I mean, that's where I want to go. Let's find out about your lines of sight. What was the number at the last meeting with your FP&A team? You walked in there and what did they kind of look at their shoes? What was that number you were asking for that made them nervous? What was that number? So, anyway, will they be completely frank with me? Not necessarily, but they'll come with something that's just as good. They'll feel like, okay, Jack, I can't give you that, but I'm going to give you this. And so, that goes back to my reporting skills, I suppose, to try to push there. I don't always get there. 

Hannah Munro: 12:12 

So, for our audience that might be listening and going, that sounds like an interesting approach. What do you mean by a line of sight? So, give me that definition. 

Jack Sweeney: 12:21 

Yeah, so, that's what– and again, I use it interchangeably perhaps with what are your top-of-mind metrics? What are the numbers you look at before your first cup of coffee in the morning? What are you measuring now that you weren't measuring 12 months ago? Perhaps what metric made you look at the world a little differently? Again, finance is along the front lines now. That's where these questions are directed. finance leaders who are leading the way will have a new number for you that they're paying attention to that they weren't looking at 12 months ago because they know that they didn't have they weren't looking at business the same way. They're entirely changing. And frankly, businesses are entirely changing. They're seeing new opportunities. They're seeing where they can more profitably operate over here. Why are we spending all this money over here? So, the lines of sight are changing everything. And again, it's the ability to measure where they couldn't before. And it has everything to do with these digital touch points or being able to see further beyond the organization into relationships. 

Hannah Munro: 13:34 

And it's an interesting piece, isn't it? And I must admit, in my day job, I see it all the time, like what we're being asked for in terms of numbers and KPIs. And it's constantly changing and evolving. And how much do you think is that the fact that that need was always there and it's been driven by technology. And how much is the fact that we're living in a different age and a different world? So, where do you think? 

Jack Sweeney: 14:02 

that lies? I think it has everything to do with the cloud. And again, many of the SaaS metrics have pointed the direction as to where greater industry needs to go. Now, you can go back in time and look at the cloud-installed base 10 years ago versus today. It's just exploded. And so, the lines of sight have improved exponentially. And finally, finance leadership understands that they're being tasked with something far greater than their predecessors were. They get to reinvent business given the fact that they can see into all these spaces now they had better if they're strategic. And again, that's the, you know, everyone would like to think they're strategic. Not every finance leader can think strategically. So, the people who are advancing into that role today, again, board members, CEOs, they know who they're looking for now. And it's a much more strategic-minded CFO. So, how do you get that experience? And again, that's sort of eye always open. What are those experiences that prepared you for a CFO role? And they had better not be talking about their CPA exam. They better be talking about how they played a strategic role in understanding why a potential merger partner wasn't a good fit, wouldn't be a good fit as to where the future things are headed. You know, being able to see out further and understand that, you know, certain businesses are out in front, and others aren't and understanding why, whatever it may be. So, finance leaders need to think strategically. And I want to If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to– I'll share with you. I always bring up the fact that finance leaders need to be able to explain themselves better. That's how we sort of opened up with me. I can just tell you that I've always had a natural curiosity and I love asking questions and getting to know people. So, that's a good skill set for a journalist. But if you're going to be a finance leader today, you have to build relationships with Yeah, absolutely. and the woman investor. And again, your HR leader, human capital. Human capital is coming to the forefront, by the way, in many of our conversations. And I think that's a whole other maybe podcast episode. But right now, they need to explain themselves better. And I thought I'd share this with you, which is when I start, I bring a guest on, just as you brought me on. It's interesting. There's been a lot of email exchange, usually with a communications professional. These are C-suite executives. They're very busy. There's someone in between us and them. And I will begin. I've already emphasized that we need real stories for you to tell. But you know what? These are really busy people, and they're usually a fast... They can think on their feet. So, chances are they might have read the email. They might not have. But I always begin with this. I'm going to share. This is my actual script. And Hannah, I'm going to I'm going to have you be the CFO. Then I'll say so, Hannah, thank you for joining us. Thank you for the time. Always appreciate it. I always make I emphasize that. They're on a tight schedule. They want to know how long this is going to be. I say, oh, it's going to be 30 to 45 minutes. And I begin by saying, so, just a few notes up front here. I alert them. This isn't going to take long. Podcasts are a storytelling medium. To engage listeners, we're seeking to have our guests listen. relate experiences. And I have this one example, Hannah, if you wouldn't mind, just indulge me before we begin recording. I'm going to share this with you. Frequently, certain guests tell us their first job was in public accounting. But that's not relating an experience. To relate an experience, you would say something like, I began working as an auditor in the Houston office of KPMG serving midsize energy clients. Okay, that's got Houston, geography, KPMG, the company, energy, the sector. Now, finance leaders, unfortunately, are wired not to share information. That's not true. It's not required, usually. But this is not the earnings call or a call where the business press reporter is there on deadline trying to get anything. This is something very different that we're doing. So, basically, our challenge is to set apart this episode from all the other CFOs we've interviewed. And the only way I can do that, Hannah, is if you share actual experiences. Okay, that's the end of my intro. But I'm saying it as passionate as I do to them to you, because we're trying to make them understand it's a different medium. And it's a wonderful medium for finance leaders who have to build relationships today. And I can't emphasize that enough because, again, I'll just underscore that point. Here they are trying to measure the business differently, and they've got to go places that they've never been before. Twenty years ago, the CFO could stay in that office. Annie or she didn't have to roam about and care about these other relationships. But as all of business, the organization changes, the organization digitalizes, touch points, reacquaint the business with relating to the world outside differently, finance leaders likewise have to be able to roam the business and understand all the individuals involved in the organization. So, anyway, that's my take on that. 

Hannah Munro: 21:10 

And I love that. And you made a really interesting comment there, Jack, about the fact that finance leaders are almost scared to tell stories or to share information. So, you know, how do we combat that? How do we change that? And how do we get people to relate to people in finance and to have those deep and those connections, I guess, with not only their internal stakeholders, but also their external ones as well? 

Jack Sweeney: 21:38 

Yeah, I think the power of the professional narrative, I think too many finance leaders take for granted their resumes and aren't able to talk about it in a way that engages others. Okay, and again, my opening question, what are three experiences, really? And frankly, I usually open up, what are some of those experiences? But I've emphasized beforehand, it would be great if you could share three. Usually, they don't. But, you know, They should. And it's almost like, OK, you're going to meet someone on the elevator and you're going to have a 60 second introduction with them. What do you share? OK, so, you have a 60 second professional narrative and you also have the sort of the roundtable narrative where you might have 10 minutes with another individual where you could share more and you're going to have a lengthy presentation. Professional narrative. That's what goes on the podcast here. But you need to be you need to have it nailed down. And let's face it, these are some of the most disciplined people. That's one of the key characteristics of every guest we've ever had on the show. And I don't mind emphasizing the obvious here. They're so, disciplined. But they've overlooked the importance of their professional narrative as it relates to all of those stakeholders who, frankly, a lot of them don't really care about the CFO title. If you've got to build relationships outside, and again, all parts of the organization, the customer support team, you know, who really have this wonderful view, you know, you need to build those relationships and have those people understand you're approachable and point things out to you. 

Hannah Munro: 23:36 

And I love that. There's a couple of things that are really interesting in that and, you know, come along some of the themes that we've had on the podcast. So, I think the first thing about being clear on what the value of your team is, I guess, internally, like almost like a vision statement, which I, you know, that kind of like, you know, can you stand up in 60 seconds and say what you do in finance for that person, I guess, is I think where we're going there. But also, about who you are as an individual. Could you introduce yourself in a way that allows people to connect? Is, is that, is, have I, have I, have I understood that right? 

Jack Sweeney: 24:09 

You know, there's, there's lots of, you know, there's, there's a CFO as storyteller. And, you know, often that has to do with visionary storytelling, which is the ability to articulate a vision that results in cheaper capital. Frankly, you've got this wonderful idea. And in fact, it's going to pay dividends already because you're able to share this powerful story. But then there's the narrative that you share with individuals and build a network with. And this is where I think finance leaders tend to be more challenged. 

Hannah Munro: 24:43 

No, absolutely. And I think it's really interesting having spoken to a few CFOs, both on and off the podcast, is that they're very factual. It's all very numbers orientated. And I think it's what it's quite... I love the concept of a CFO as a storyteller. So, what do the numbers actually mean? What's the story behind it? And how do you communicate that in a different way? So, how do we, you know, how, if a CFO is sitting there going, that's me, you know, I am definitely that numbers person. How do they go about crafting their stories and how do they approach doing it in a way that somebody else can understand? How do they communicate it well? 

Jack Sweeney: 25:28 

I think they have to use what they've learned so, well. Again, I mentioned they're so, – my sense is they're so, disciplined that if they focused on this, you know they would nail it. They just haven't made it a priority or thought about it all that much, and they can wing it. This might be the only area that finance leaders wing. It's how do they become– and again, interestingly, CEO leadership. CEOs get to be the expressive ones. CEOs get to be the back slappers, and they move through crowds and shake hands. CFOs haven't traditionally played that role. But that's where we're asking them. We're asking them to do a little back slap. We're asking them. And it begins with how you relate to others and understanding that your professional narrative needs to be shaped differently to relate to others. And again, you know, this is where, in my mind, the podcast... concept came forward. There were just so, many conferences where we would go and hear about the changing role of the CFO and, oh, gosh, look at all these stakeholders. Look at this one slide. We've got, you know, 20 different stakeholders that finance leaders need to be building relationships with today. Really? In my mind, I was like, well, that's there. They got to learn to relate to others more broadly. And at the same time, the idea of podcasting just came forward because I understood, too, as you might well know, Hannah, the power of an individual's voice is so, powerful. And this is something science has spent some time understanding as well, that we seem to have a greater familiarity with people when we hear their voice. And this is why I think this medium is fabulous for CFOs. If you want to build relationships, somehow the visual doesn't give us the sense of the emotional makeup of an individual as well as audio does. So, anyway, there you go. There's a tangent. I don't think you expected. 

Hannah Munro: 27:31 

But it's a great one. And I must admit, I'm a massive fan of the written words. I'm an absolute bookworm. But there is something to be said for speaking to somebody. And I think also taking it a step above. It's why, for those that don't know, I record video in my podcast as well. But I love seeing people's faces, that ability to connect. And I think what's been really interesting, I don't know about what you found, Jack, is like as we've gone through COVID, is people have become more confident. dialling on to video based conversations whereas actually prior to that you wouldn't even contemplate it because they you know but actually the connection you can make both through voice which I love and that's you know why I started podcasting as well but um also the concept of face-to-face I think it's an it's a really interesting dynamic um and it's certainly changed have you seen the same sort of shift as well in what you're doing 

Jack Sweeney: 28:24 

It's certainly happening. And I like certainly the video component of it. I do see it as separate or different. What's interesting is how people have accepted it now and how people– and it's only– 18 months, perhaps, where it's been much more widely accepted in business at large. So, executives who wouldn't ordinarily want to participate in that sort of way, it's now a why not or a must, I guess. They don't have a choice any longer. But 

Hannah Munro: 29:04 

I think that's a really good point is that CFOs are almost becoming part of the brand voice as well themselves, aren't they? They're no longer seen as the person that's hidden behind the other strategic leaders. Actually, they're in that forefront and they're sitting next to the CEO and the head of revenue ops. And they're part of the brand and the conversation that people are having. And I think that's what's really exciting. And certainly, you do a lot around CFO stories and interviewing CFOs. Have you seen their perception and their willingness to participate change as well over the last sort of, you know, few years? Yes, 

Jack Sweeney: 29:41 

as they get more comfortable with the medium, absolutely. And we have a lot of, I'm having return guests now, which I'm happy to do, particularly if we enjoyed speaking with them first go around, they're welcome back. But I want to be honest, I enjoy what I do, and I enjoy, I don't think I've ever had a bad experience with a chief financial officer. They're just so, again, professional. There's a reason when you get to the C-suite. So, I'm kind of honoured to have sort of this special role of getting to interview so, many. And that's not fluff. That's the real. So, each time I do it, I'm like, if it's somebody new, it's just a great new opportunity to understand better. But I do go in with a set of notions, again, that I've learned over time. You got to be sensitive to their time. You're going to have a very disciplined individual who you're going to be speaking with, who chooses their words a lot more carefully than I do. And so, it's interesting. And do they have patience with me as well? Because sometimes I'll ramble a little as I build up to a question. It's a good example of how they have to relate to more people. I got to relate to Jack on this podcast. So, it's an interesting rapport building experiment. I'll leave it there. 

Hannah Munro: 31:04 

And it's an interesting conversation, though. So, what could CFOs do? Because obviously they're coming to the forefront. They're going to be more at the face of the organization. What could they be doing better? 

Jack Sweeney: 31:16 

It's interesting. And I have blogged about this. I called them the MVP of the content marketing world. Because let's face it, finance leaders, having said all about where they have to improve in terms of their professional narrative, connecting with others, having said that, Meanwhile, they've got the silver bullet, which is the language of finance to talk to their peers. So, when they go, they can approach another CFO and have the most engaging conversation, whereas CEOs can't pull that off. In my world, they can talk about accounting treatments. They can talk about all this. The special language that is finance accounting brings them together. They have some common ground already. So, again, the most valuable players of the content marketing world 12. folks, your finance leader is able to walk into conferences and immediately have a connection with another C-suite leader. And from there comes a lunch, a tennis game, and maybe a partnership of some kind. Who knows? But stating the obvious, this is the way it's been forever, but there's a lot of reasons why we have to get the finance leader out of the office. There's a lot of reasons why finance leaders need to begin thinking of them and let's face it, what we're asking them to do, though, isn't easy. They still are the, you know, the trust building element of that organization. So, often it's the trust falls on the trust. Trust building falls on the CFO's shoulders. If people lose faith in a company, the CFO is the one often that'll take it on the nose on the way down. They are responsible for business ethics and what have you, compliance, all those things they sign off on. The CEO gets to get to be the rock star. The CFO is never going to get to be the rock star. Let me put it that way. 

Hannah Munro: 33:21 

So, there's probably some CFOs saying, yeah, I've already been told that I need to be further forwards. Hey, I'm going to be honest and say, we probably both approached quite a few recent that have gone, oh, do I want to do this? What do you think in terms of preparation CFOs can do to be a good interviewee? and be a good guest on a show, whether it's a podcast, whether it's a video call, what can they do to prepare? 

Jack Sweeney: 33:48 

Yeah, so, they need to, again, there's a lot of articles, as you well know, we all know, podcasting is how do you engage listeners to step back in the audio world? How do you engage that person who's out jogging? How do you, you know, people who are usually doing something else? And it takes storytelling. You got to provide that extra level of detail that, again, finance leaders are guarded. It's not what they're, you know, it's not their home turf. So, they have to think a little differently and understand, I need to give a little more detail here. I've got to be patient with the listener and give them spoon-feed it a little more. Do not take for granted. And again, this is not the earnings call. I'm not going to report on your profit margins. That's not what we're doing here. We're creating a piece of content that's really going to help you relate to people. So, if you're going to come into the podcasting world, play with our rules. Start telling stories. you know, aren't about your business model necessarily. We want to know your business vision. Absolutely. But we want to know your professional narrative. We want to know about you. And again, we're all a little modest and it's hard to do. It really is hard to do sometimes to talk about your milestones in the past. And when anybody writes a memoir, they, you know, one of the golden rules is don't make yourself the hero. You got to kind of make yourself... Not the anti-hero, but you got to make the protagonist. You can't, right? You don't want it to come off as bluster. So, this is challenging. This is hard to do. And I'm not trying to say it's easy but given their accomplishments and the discipline that they have, if they get focused on it, they can begin to develop a professional narrative that would just knock it out of the park. I'd be confident. 

Hannah Munro: 35:46 

And every CFO has got a story. I think that's what's fascinating is that they come and certainly that where people are coming from now is so, much more diverse than it was, you know, years ago. And I think if, you know, there's a growing trend of people coming across from operations and not just up through finance. So, I guess it's understanding the value of that piece and bringing it into a conversation as well. And, you know, and how, again, Yeah, and I guess it's how do you pull that out? And with your skills, good interviewers, I'd like to think I'm certainly learning a few things on this call as well. But how can you think about the stories that you need to tell? How do you find the right story to tell as part of your professional narrative? 

Jack Sweeney: 36:37 

That's interesting, right? So, for finance leaders today, as we've been speaking, we emphasize strategy, of course. finance leaders should really be sharing experiences that permitted them to play a role. And again, I'm going back in time. So, before they became a CFO, they were on an FP&A team that had to evaluate potential mergers and acquisitions. And there was this one acquisition that went sideways. And here's what happened. And here's the lesson I took away from it. Now, it's not even a success story. It's one that went sideways. But maybe... Maybe I was able to see something happening and we were able to step away quick enough so, we didn't get burned. Oh, okay. So, again, sometimes you don't realize the potential of a story. What did that reveal? That revealed, well, you were there. You were the fireman. You were the person who saved lives or the life of the company. So, again, it's storytelling, applying storytelling to, and it probably, and you know what? Finance leaders need to be comfortable talking about This is kind of delicate in business whenever you name an individual. And maybe you don't even have to name them. Just give us a little bit of their background. The CFO– and I always– sometimes I– coach them along the way. I said, you know, that was 20 years ago. Do you think you could tell us a little more about that? I don't think that person's sensitive to it anymore. Identifying the stories that meant something to you nine times out of 10 involved other individuals or mentors, people who were able to help you learn. And what they did probably has influenced how you became a leader. You know, what they didn't do might have influenced how you became a leader. And, you know, sometimes it's a negative quality as well. Very often, I think it might be. That's a great story to share, though. And again, you're not being a Debbie Downer by sharing something negative. That's something else we have to get over with. Sometimes sharing a negative story and how it put you on the right track, others will relate to far more because we all have made mistakes and we all relate to them. And suddenly you become so, much more approachable. when you share those types of stories. 

Hannah Munro: 39:06 

Yeah, I love that, Jack. That's such an amazing point is that sometimes the best stories aren't always the most, you know, they aren't the ones where you're necessarily the hero, but you're the ones that you learn from. And I guess that should be a part of your professional journey is actually what have you learned? Because there is a general fear of making mistakes, isn't there? Everyone has it. And yeah, we've got to make mistakes to learn. 

Jack Sweeney: 39:34 

The one– I want to point out something too. There's– interesting. One of the most recommended books that finance leaders continue, and I've talked about this on the podcast recently, happens to be Dale Carnegie, How to Make Friends and Influence People. And there's an obvious reason for that, because so, many finance leaders have turned to that book. And it was written in the 1930s. I mean, it's just amazing. It's more than any book, I would say. The business book, sometimes it's overlooked. It's not really thought of as a business strategy book. For finance leaders, this is strategy. Pick up that book and read it. And one of the things that he has said, and this sums up me as well, which I really relate to finance leaders, they're trying to create this quality of having a genuine interest in others and demonstrate a genuine interest in others. If you're going to be building relationships, you have to do that. And when you're a C-suite leader pressed for time, wow. That's challenging. I mean, I've got to build it. I have to demonstrate a genuine interest with Carol and customer support. Yes, you do. It's very, very difficult to do. But I will point out that Dale Carnegie, when he coined that, I think, Genuine interest in others. It means so, much to me as I try to sometimes extract information from finance leaders. How did they do this? How did they get there? Same thing as they look to build relationships. It's the best advice I've come across. 

Hannah Munro: 41:12 

No, it's a... For anyone that hasn't read it, I can't believe there's many people listening to the show that haven't either heard of it or come across it, but it is a fantastic book. And I guess that's a good way for us to sort of wrap up the podcast. So, for those that know that this is an area that needs work on. that they know they need to work on their storytelling skills, their communication skills, their connection skills. What are your top tips for them? Given all your years of doing this as a job, what are your top tips that they can take away and apply today? 

Jack Sweeney: 41:47 

Yeah, I think there are wonderful podcasts out there to stop and listen to. Entrepreneurial podcasts clearly are some of the most realm on iTunes and Apple podcast. No. So, listen to how other business leaders are articulating changes in, you know, how they look forward today. That would be my one. Listen to how it's done. And again, separate from it's got to be the audio. You've got to nail it in the audio and, you know, pick out people, put people in your business narrative, mention others. Yeah. But think about good storytelling. Where, when, what, how, you know, the five W's apply here. And that's what's so, often overlooked. More detail, like the example I gave with KPMG. I began in public accounting. We all know how that was. No, we don't. Tell us you were in Houston. Tell us you were with midsize energy clients. That's all intriguing. Suddenly we know something about you. So, detail matters. And so, detail matters. Listen to podcasts. And I'm sure I had something else. But that's really in the five W's. 

Hannah Munro: 43:11 

Yeah, I was going to say the five W's definitely. And so, I love that. So, that's three top tips, guys, that you can take away and apply next time you're on. And Jack, if our audience wants to learn more about you and your podcast, what's the best way to find out more? 

Jack Sweeney: 43:28 

Yeah, so, you can download us on all the major listening platforms, Spotify, Apple, Google. I have my URL, cfothoughtleader.com, and we have our yearbook, CFO yearbook. Every year I put together some of the last 100 podcasts, interviews that we've done. You can find that on Amazon. But visit us at cfothoughtleader.com is probably the best way. Awesome. 

Hannah Munro: 43:54 

Well, thank you, Jack. And for those that are interested, we'll of course put those links in the show notes so, that you can get access to them afterwards. So, I want to say a final thank you, Jack. You've been an amazing guest and thank you for sharing your knowledge around telling and drawing out stories. It's been a really fascinating session. 

Jack Sweeney: 44:12 

Hannah, this has been quite an experience for me, so, I appreciate it. Putting me in the hot seat. I deserve it. Thank you so, much for the time. 

Hannah Munro: 44:20 

No, and I hope you haven't minded being on the other side of the interview process. 

Jack Sweeney: 44:24 

No, this is really a learning experience for me, I have to say. And we know this can be challenging when you try to boil things down. So, thank you so, much for allowing me to share my thoughts. 

Hannah Munro: 44:34 

It's my pleasure.