24. Avoiding Burnout When Managing Your Remote Finance Team - with Shauna Moran

24. Avoiding Burnout When Managing Your Remote Finance Team - with Shauna Moran, Founder of Operate Remote

Hannah Munro: 0:48 

Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. As usual, I'm your host, Hannah Munro. And with me today, I have Shauna Moran, who is the founder and managing director of Operate Remote. Welcome. It's lovely to have you on the show. Lovely to be here, Hannah. Thanks for having me. It's my pleasure. My pleasure. So, tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you end up doing what you do? 

Shauna Moran: 1:13 

Yeah, good question. And a question I've been asked... recently quite a lot to be honest because you know everybody is working remotely in the pandemic right so, you know people think is this something that's that you've just come up with since the pandemic has started and it's actually not it's something that I've been doing for a number of years and I suppose I started I mean what I do today and I suppose I should clarify that first is I work with remote organizations to help them build emotionally healthy sustainable and engaged workforces, regardless of locations. But how I started on that journey actually came from my own challenges as a leader in an organization that was managing remote teams and as an individual that was working remotely that wondered, what were better ways to do this? What were more sustainable ways to do this? And at the time I was working for a large multinational organization. I was working remotely from Ireland and the team that I was working on were based across nine different time zones. Plus, we also had an office-based team. So, it was a hybrid environment. But of course, back then, nobody was speaking about remote work. In fact, there was little support out there. There was no articles. There was no blogs. And it left me with the question of how do I get more knowledge? So, I decided to go back to university while I was working, and I studied innovation management full time. or sorry, part-time and based all of my research around remote teams. That was the starting point for me in operate remote was first of all, acquiring that knowledge and that academic knowledge, which was really important and to carry out my own research. And then I was able to change a lot of the processes and the way things were done within my own team, see the improvements of that. And then, yeah, a lot of my clients, clients that I've since taken on, you know, started approaching me So, a lot of people in my network that also wanted to go remote or were remote for a number of different reasons, but were struggling. But, you know, quite quickly on that consulting piece wasn't enough. And I realized that quite early because, you know, the processes, the technology, the tools, you know, they will only go so, far. And I think that is a testament to where a lot of companies are today with the pandemic. We know everybody can work remotely and do their job remotely. But the question lies, can they actually be truly effective and sustainable at doing that? And that's where the mindset piece comes in, I like to call it. Essentially, that's where I come in as a coach. So, I'm an accredited coach and consultant, and I specialize in that emotional intelligence piece to help companies really make that change for the long term. So, I'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about that mindset piece in a while. But yeah, that's my very long-winded story. 

Hannah Munro: 4:07 

Yeah. it's not long-winded and it's great to hear that um you've actually come from having to apply these principles because it's not just about the theory and obviously the research that you've done um and I must admit i've read quite a few of your articles now and it's fantastic to see sort of the research side coming through as well um and I guess the one thing there's a lot at the moment in terms of work from home fatigue you know we've been doing this technically I think it's 11 months I’m speaking to somebody on the phone earlier 11 months of remote working um And I'm not sure that we've actually, apart from the technology, whether people have actually changed the way that they communicate or the way that works. So, what can we do to help either combat or get rid of that fatigue that's happening at the moment? 

Shauna Moran: 4:53 

For sure. So, I think a couple of different things to point out first, Hannah, that's important. So, number one, the fatigue is, isn't just coming from remote working this is not a normal remote working environment situation right so, you know a lot of that fatigue is coming from a mixture of different things and no two people are experiencing the same situation right now you know um some people are homeschooling some people are living alone some people haven't seen anybody for months on end right so, no two people are experienced in the same situation which means there's no one-size-fits-all approach um Remote working, to give a bit of context, so, the research behind remote working before the pandemic shows that remote workers generally are much more productive than their office counterpoints. And when you think about it, the reasons why it makes sense, you know, we don't have those interruptions. We don't really have those social interactions. Remote workers can work at a time that suits them, and they don't have those long commutes, those daily commutes. Now, the unhealthy aspect of that is it's more difficult to switch off from work. So, that research around productivity has transferred over into the pandemic, but it's actually created an explosion of a challenge. And that is burnout. People are struggling to actually switch off from work. So, they're struggling to create those healthy boundaries for themselves, which is leading to the challenge around burnout. 70% of the workforce have experienced burnout since the pandemic began. That's Survey Monkey survey. So, that's just to give a little bit of context. So, these are not new challenges, but of course everything is heightened because we are actually locked down to one location. coupled with the fact that all of these remote organizations have had to adapt overnight. And okay, they might be surviving now, but the question is, how do they get to thriving? So, it is a case of changing our mindset. And there's a couple of different ways; I suppose that you can approach it. One of the most common things and the easiest kind of quick win solutions that I advise organizations on is look at your communication. So, if you haven't adapted your communication, which you mentioned, Tana, then you're never, ever, ever going to get on top of the burnout issue because people are just fatigued with meetings, their calendars are out of control, and they don't have time to actually, A, do what Cal Newport terms deep work, you know, the creative work, the strategy work, and B, actually take a breath to actually manage their mental health. So, in remote working, there's kind of two ways of looking at communication. There's the synchronous communication, which is what we are doing now, Hannah, we're communicating in real time. And then there's the asynchronous communication. So, synchronous real time, asynchronous delayed time. So, that would be, for example, when people listen to this back, we're giving them the option to listen to this podcast at a time that suits them. when it's suitable for them, rather than asking them to be live on this podcast with us in order to listen to it. So, the same approach applies to remote teams. How can we create more asynchronous communication so, that we can, A, reduce the amount of meetings that we're having, B, we can improve the quality of the conversations that we're having in real time, and C, we can give people more flexibility. If we give them more flexibility, they’ll be better able to manage themselves, their mental health, their chaotic schedules and everything else that's going on in their lives and be more creative and innovative, right? Because they have time to think. Because the way I see so, many organizations operating now is meetings back-to-back to back. People are spending eight hours or more in meetings some days. And then at the end of a day at 5 p.m., they have to do another two hours in order to tick off the to-do list from the meetings that have come. from that day. So, it's a never-ending cycle and it's exhausting. So, that's one of the best ways to look at how to be really effective for your whole team at remote working. And that will help reduce the burnout challenges. It will help improve mental health and that will feed into everything else that you. 

Hannah Munro: 9:10 

1. So, talking about the two different types of asynchronous communications, because this is a really interesting point in that You talk about people being able to consume communication at a time that suits them. How do you manage that, but also not get to a point where people have a thousand emails to read at the end of the day? And so, can you give any top tips for managing communication and those different types?

Shauna Moran: 9:35 

Exactly. So, when we think asynchronous communication, we need to think bigger than just email. There's so, many great tools out there now that you can use and a lot of quick wins, a lot of tools actually that companies are probably using already, but just not leveraging properly. So, the likes of Slack, for example, and Microsoft Teams, you know, very... really great instant messaging tools that most companies use in some shape or form right now. There's a way that you can automate communication there. So, for example, I worked with a client recently who attended one of my team workshops. And what they were doing was they were having daily stand-ups every morning. And because the team was getting bigger, the daily stand-ups were lasting for about an hour every morning. Now, it was still beneficial to get the team together and discuss, but at the same time, it was that info information sharing. So, it was just sharing that information, those facts. What are you up to? What are you up to today? What have you done? What are your blockers? So, instead of having that in real time, what they did was they automated that daily stand up in Slack so, that those notifications would go out to everybody between a certain time frame. So, they had a certain time frame to answer it. I think it was between 7 and maybe 11 a.m. But then they would also be able to see the transactional history of what everybody else is doing. So, they were able to see that every day. Now, what was really interesting was they knew that the blockers that people were posting in that automation were going to be really important to discuss as a team. So, instead of having a daily stand-up every day, they had it twice a week and they only discussed the blockers. So, they actually coached and brainstormed solutions to each of their blockers on the calls. So, they had two hours’ worth of calls instead of five hours’ worth of calls every week. And the conversations were much more meaningful. So, that's the type of... ways that we need to get curious about, you know, and what I would advise teams to do and teams, we don't have to try it for the whole company yet, but experiment within your teams. It's going to be different for every team as well. So, look at some of those quick wins. The quickest way to look at that is where are we just sharing information? versus where do we need actually meaningful discussions? And the sharing of information, that's where we can bring in asynchronous communication and not just through email. Another thing that you can do that a lot of companies don't think about when we look at async communication is improving our written communication. So, how many times have you gotten a message on Slack or Teams and somebody has asked you a question, but in order to clarify their question, you have to ask more questions back to them. So, they ask you maybe for a report and you say, okay, which report, when do you need it? What needs to be included, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So, then it's back and forth, back and forth to get the answer that you need in the first place to deliver the answer that they need. So, one of the best ways to look at that is how, as we as an organization, can improve our written communication. What needs to be included? What's a good example of how a question should be asked? How do we make it easier for people to improve that and then for people to digest that information? There's lots of different ways, you know, you can look at it. There's so, many different tools. I wouldn't even go looking at other tools, like, you know, because that's just going to overwhelm you. I would look at what are you using right now and how can you leverage those tools in a more optimized way? And how can you improve the communication outside of the tools, like the written communication? What should be included? And what are those quick wins where you're sharing information that you can deliver it in a more async way, if that makes sense? 

Hannah Munro: 13:21 

Makes absolute sense. And I must admit, you probably You might have been able to see my brain whirring. So, I must, my team are going to see a slight shift in how we're starting to communicate as well. So, that's a really great tip. And I can see, I can definitely see how that could work in terms of updates because you're right. You spend a lot of time just gathering information rather than discussing and brainstorming that creative piece, which is where you need people on the call. 

Shauna Moran: 13:45 

Absolutely. And think of it from a leadership perspective, right? Like we need to be checking in with our team. How are they doing? How is their mental health? We need to be coaching them and giving them space to bring those conversations to us. So, if we collect the information that we usually would have updated each other on in our one-to-ones ahead of time, that means when we have a one-to-one, we can actually just have an open agenda and have that really free flowing and build that trust and build that relationship and really help each other. So, it ticks. 

Hannah Munro: 14:17 

off so, many boxes. And I think the point when I think about this is about being organized, isn't it? Because so, much of the way that we're communicating is reactive rather than proactive. And if you're starting to shift that conversation into more of a proactive, this is what I need to talk to my team about, that changes the way that you communicate as well. 

Shauna Moran: 14:40 

Absolutely. Yeah. And that reactive piece, even on... Like we have to put ourselves back in the driver's seat of our own time. And, you know, a lot of individuals I speak to feel like they can't do that within their organization. And I always say, you know, start with just one boundary to protect yourself. Like maybe it's that switch off time. you know, from work in the evening. Start with just one boundary and create, and I send my clients over, you know, assertive templates that they can use for when they need to stay true to their boundaries so, they can copy and paste them. You know, they're respectful, they're kind, they're offering other solutions, but it's saying, you know, I'm not going to stretch on my boundary of switching off, you know, at 6pm every evening. That's my one boundary that I have to hold myself accountable to. And I think, like in being effective at creating those boundaries, we also need to not be, as you said, Hannah, reactive all of the time. And there's things that we can do for ourselves, right? It's, you know, do we have emails and Slack notifications and all the project boards on our phone? You know, are we looking at those in the evening? Like, how are we holding ourselves accountable to that? Like, I know that there's, you know, it's a great distraction for people these days. Work is a great distraction. But what is the cost of that? You know, if you're saying yes to looking at your Slack notifications at 9 p.m. on a Monday night? What are you saying no to? You're saying no to yourself, your rest, your peace of mind, probably your mental health. So, these things add up over time. So, take some control back of your time and how you're scheduling your time. And like recently I worked with the CEO and immediately I was able to see a massive quick win for him around this, which was how he's scheduling meetings. Beforehand, he would have let everybody have access to his calendar and just schedule. So, he had no time for himself, no time whatsoever. And his calendar was dictated by everybody else. So, instead of doing that, we set up a calendar link. So, simple, but yet so, effective. And he decided, OK, I want to be available for my team as much as possible. But I also need two days offline without meetings in order to work on the strategy and the vision as my job as a CEO. So, we did that. And, you know, his team didn't suffer. In fact, they found it much more helpful to use the calendar link and actually his availability increased. they found was greater than before. So, and when he was having those conversations, he felt like he was much more in tune and he was there, he was present because it was the time that suited him. So, that, it's how can we leverage tools to support us in that, in creating those boundaries? There are so, many different tools, but I know there's probably a lot of people out there struggling and there's probably people listening to this that are experiencing burnout you know I have a conversation about burnout every single day so, start with just one boundary. 

Hannah Munro: 17:56 

I think that's a great sort of self-care and I think there is like you say there's a there's a natural instinct to want, because of remote working, to be switched on all the time and to, when something comes in, to try and almost justify that you are working and that you're online and you're doing something. And I think, like you said, taking time for yourself and your mental health is so, important, especially at the moment. Oh, so, important. Yeah. So, that's brilliant from sort of a self-perspective, but what about managing teams? So, how do you support a team during this time? Because everyone's got so, many different things going on, whether it's childcare challenges or, you know, just trying to fit in day-to-day life in amongst everything that's happening. So, how can you support a team to not hit that burnout? What sort of things, strategies should you put in place as a leader if you're managing a remote team? 

Shauna Moran: 18:50 

Great question. So, to your point, Hannah, you know, about, you know, you mentioned how people feel like they should be online to say, hey, I'm here, I'm doing things. That's one of the first places that a leader can start is really clarifying, you know, for each team member, how you as a leader and how the organization is measuring performance right now. And it should be not around input, not about the number of hours you're putting in, but the output. What are those deliverables? So, helping clarify expectations across the board and helping to your team prioritize their workloads. I'm a huge fan now of, you know, focusing on quality over quantity. You know, what are the top three things? that we want to achieve this quarter right um what are those how does that work you know daily like what's the one thing that you need to focus on today as opposed to what are the 10 things because I don't think that's realistic anymore so, helping them prioritize helping them get clarification on what they should be doing how it should look and helping them understand how they can measure their success during this time in a realistic way. Because what that does is it takes the psychological fear away. So, the psychological fear is, am I doing enough? Does everybody think I'm doing enough? you know, am I okay? Do people know now that because my kids are at home and I'm homeschooling that I haven't really been fully switched on and, oh, I better do an extra couple of hours this evening. And it builds up. We're in what I call the remote rabbit hole. We're in our own minds thinking, you know, all these different things that aren't necessarily true. So, we can help our team by giving them that clarity and information so, that they can reality test for themselves. And I think it's having a discussion around that. Is that realistic? How do you see this being realistic for you? How do you see this working for you? What are the ways that I need to support you? What are the ways that we need to support you as a team? What are the ways we need to support you as an organization? Asking those open-ended questions and inviting discussion, that's the most important thing because we have to compromise. You know, we have to find that common ground together as a team. And the second thing leaders need to do, which often is overlooked, is to lead by example. So, if you're a leader that is trying to promote better mental health within your organization or your team, or you're trying to reduce burnout, and you yourself are working together and sending emails late at night or at the weekend, I've seen leaders do this, or you are tagging people in Slack or notifications after working hours and you are not actively practicing what you preach, then your team are not going to follow suit. That's the number one thing. So, if you're burnt out as a leader, solve that first. We need to put on our own oxygen mask first, just like they tell us and to do as adults, you know, put on your own oxygen mask before the kids on the plane, right? It's the same thing with this, because if you as a leader, if your cup is in full, how are you supposed to serve anybody else? How are you supposed to show up for your team? You can't. So, you have to figure that out yourself and you have to work on that first so, that then you can start to give your energy to other people. So, like, I've seen this time and time again with leaders, you know, CEOs approach me, my team are burnt out, I've lost, you know, our employee retention numbers are terrible. You know, we're losing people left, right and centre. And that's the first place I start with that founder, with that CEO, with that leadership team. And Even I worked with a company recently and I'm working directly with their head of HR to roll out remote first policies and procedures and mindset changes within the organization. And one thing that they've created is taking mental health days. So, when their employees feel overwhelmed, whatever they're feeling, they can take an afternoon, they can take a day for themselves. That is okay. But nobody was taking it. Nobody was doing it, even though they needed it. Until the head of HR herself said, who has a big team, has a big department. She said, look, guys, I need to take the afternoon. I need a mental health day. And she's actively started practicing what she preaches. And now everybody feels comfortable to do so, themselves. So, people are happier. They're more sustained. So, there's so, much... you have so, much of an influence as a leader. And I don't think leaders always necessarily recognize that or they think just because they're working remotely and nobody can really, you know, physically in person see them that, you know, they don't have that much influence. But more now so, than ever, they do. 

Hannah Munro: 24:00 

I think that's a messages out if I can avoid it because yeah people even though you tell them not to they will still respond at silly o'clock so, how do you balance the shift obviously because people are working flexible hours so, not everybody's working at the same time but they still need to communicate so, how do you manage that as a team? And how did you manage it when they were working across different continents in different, you know, different areas of the world? 

Shauna Moran: 24:54 

Yeah, I think the first, you know, protocol for any leader in that situation is to have that discussion with the team. So, for example, with your team, you know, you said you learned the hard way, you know, after this conversation, you know, maybe it's the case that you have a team conversation and discussion around this to say, look, guys, you know, this is really important stuff. And, you know, here's how we hold ourselves accountable to this. And here are some boundaries that I recommend you guys put in place. Here's what I've put in place for myself to protect myself. So, we work in a flexible way. So, how do we hold each other accountable to that? And let the team come up with ideas the solutions for that, right? Because it's only the team that knows. Some teams will create a common language around that, right. So, everybody will agree to not have notifications on their devices, on their mobile devices. And everybody will create transparency and put the information out there around their times and their flexible working hours. I've even worked with some amazing remote-first organizations that have created little pro files for everyone so, here's you know here typically are the hours I work here's where I do my deep work here's where I'm usually the best at the best time for and available for meetings and for calls um here's when I pick my kids up from school so, you know I can't really take calls then um and it just gives that lovely transparency to the team so, that I know if I'm booking a meeting with Hannah I know that her creative time is from 8am to 10am in the morning but she loves taking calls in the afternoon from 1 to 3. Now, that's a little bit more advanced. Not every team is there. So, I think that starting point is that discussion. Because what we don't want is you or any leader having those discussions with the team and saying, how come you answered that email at that time? And then you are holding everybody accountable to it. It's a shared responsibility. So, if you say yes to that email, what are you saying no to? And that's, you know, bringing in those powerful questions. If we say yes to overworking, what are we saying no to as a team? What are we saying no to for ourselves? And let people have those changes of those aha moments, you know, those light bulb moments. Okay, I get it. And then it's how can we hold each other accountable to this? Because this stuff is really important. And at the end of the day, we love our jobs. We love our company. We love what we do. We enjoy working here. But, you know, we're in organizations, right? We're not in hospitals. We're not saving lives. These things aren't... urgent, urgent. It's not life or death. So, it's to put that into perspective for everybody and for them to agree on it. When I get my clients to do that with their teams, it becomes a shared responsibility. You'll have people saying, hey man, I know you've sent that email last night, but like we've agreed that, you know, we're not going to do that, right? So, yeah, that shared responsibility is key. And that ownership, like, If somebody refuses to actually switch off for themselves or somebody wants to continue to work off their phone all night, then there's nothing much you can do about that if they haven't seen the pros and the negatives to that, the cost of doing that. 

Hannah Munro: 28:42 

And I guess it's just keeping an eye on them so, that when they do hit, because you do see it and you feel it in their voice and the way that they communicate when they're starting, you're saying, well, look, actually, I think just try it. Just take a week off emails and see what happens. 

Shauna Moran: 28:56 

Yeah. And, you know, that's a good leader will be switched on to those flags that come up. Right. You know, and I like I worked with a leader recently and his team are doing quite well, but he knows that, you know, he's hired a couple of new people. He knows that this is their first time out of a university in, you know, a full-time organization. And they've never they've never been in the workforce before. So, he knows with that, especially in the current climate, that that there could be a risk that they will overwork themselves. So, it's upfront, he's decided to have a conversation, an open conversation and discussion around work-life balance. And what does work-life balance mean to them? What does that look like? What makes that important to them? So, it's having that conversation, generating that awareness. So, you'll have the people that are aware of this, and then you'll have the people who are not aware of this. So, we have to meet both. 

Hannah Munro: 29:57 

So, what else can leaders do to support their teams that are working remotely and trying to help prevent that burnout piece? 

Shauna Moran: 30:07 

Yeah, so, I think just summarizing what I've said already. So, helping them really understand what they should be working on, what that looks like. you know, how they're measuring the success of that, helping them get super clear on what their priorities are and looking at ways that they can introduce asynchronous communication to reduce the need for constant meetings, leading by example, having those open coaching conversations. So, creating the space and the time. And I think the most important piece on that is as a leader, it's not your job to fix. Like there's plenty of things that you're not going to be able to fix. Number one, you're not a mental health professional. Number two, you're not accredited probably in how to optimize time management, right? So, there's lots of things that you do not need to fix. So, what are we left with? What's our responsibility in that? A lot of the time where the most impact comes from is being there, showing up asking the right questions and actively listening and being curious so, not trying to have you tried this have you tried that it's what could what could you try over the last 12 months we've been doing this a long time you've learned a lot of different things that works for you what doesn't what could you try what's one thing that you could try that will help you feel better today what's one thing that I could do that will you know help you feel better today how can I support you so, that's where the magic is um and that's all you need to do and show up when you show up with that empathy and when you are in that moment not I 15 minutes uh everything okay great you know it's can you slow down enough to be in that moment with your team member on a one-to-one basis 

Hannah Munro: 32:07 

And you know what, everything you said today all comes from the leadership. And I think that's the really interesting piece is that obviously there's an engagement piece and that you've got to allow your team, but actually it's driven by the behaviours at the top. So, I think hopefully everyone listening to this is having a good hard look at their own behaviours and thinking, you know, I certainly am about how they're working. So, I can't believe we are, we were almost 30 minutes into this podcast, and it has just disappeared. So, I guess my last and final question, maybe I'll sneak one more in, is what are those that are really thriving in this remote work doing? Is there anything that they are doing that's maybe slightly more advanced than some of the things that you're talking about? What's the next level? What does amazing look like in terms of remote work? 

Shauna Moran: 33:02 

Yeah, that's a great question. I'm fortunate to work with a lot of these companies that I call remote first. So, when the pandemic started, they committed to remote work. They said, you know what, we're going to get rid of the office. We're going to go forth with remote work. for the foreseeable future. And we're going to commit to improving and getting better and being a remote first company. Not just we work remotely, but everything is optimized around remote work. Our mindset, our processes, our tools, our technology. So, what are they doing? They're constantly seeking for ways to improve. That's number one. They're open to adapting. And with that comes a completely different mindset as an organization. And with that, you also create a different experience for your team because their opinions matter, their feedback matters. And most importantly, their feedback gets actioned. You know, there's a follow up. So, these organizations are continuously getting a pulse as to where people are and they're adapting. You know, I'm not I'm not saying, and I don't think it's possible that any organization has said, OK, we're going to do it this way and it's going to be the same for the next six months. We have to adapt all of the time, all of the time. You know, these remote first companies I work with, they're constantly revisiting the things like their employee benefits. They're constantly revisiting things like, you know, their flexible work policies. They're constantly looking at their communication. What other ways can we improve? So, they're not just given the yoga workshops and the meditation workshops, which I believe have a place in this world, but they're getting to the root issues and the root causes. They're not just putting the plaster over it, right? So, that's the difference. And they're committed to doing it. They see that remote working is an investment worth making long-term. that regardless of if they have a hybrid approach in the future or not, it's still going to be remote first. A lot of the processes that they use, they're going to need to use them. So, I think that's the main difference that I'm seeing with these remote first companies around what they're doing. They don't have that fixed mindset of let's just try and survive this. Let's just not change anything and let's just continue to dangle the carrot of the future office coming back because I know a lot of teams are a lot of leaders are trying to use that as a way to motivate their team which I get too. 

Hannah Munro: 35:55 

but yeah, it's just a shame that that's the motivation rather than necessarily being something to get excited about but not necessarily drive things moving forwards yeah so, exactly and I think there's a Some really interesting points in what you're saying there. And I think it's about not just lifting and shifting what you do in a normal office. It's actually reimagining and rethinking the concept of work with a remote workforce in mind. 

Shauna Moran: 36:23 

Exactly. And the quickest way to get a pulse as to where you guys are at right now is to speak with your team and to create those places for feedback, to collect the data within your team. because no two organizations are the same. So, you know, I see a lot of businesses now, they're concerned about the future and what it's going to bring. And I get that, you know, a lot of people are, but they're focused on creating hybrid policies of when we're back in the office, this is how it will work. Everybody has to be in two days a week and then they work from home the other day. And while I understand that I do, regardless of what that's going to look like and nobody can say exactly what that's going to look like instead of putting your energy in something that might happen how about putting your energy into the challenges that your team are facing today because. 

Hannah Munro: 37:19 

that's what's hold of what they're doing. 

Shauna Moran: 37:21 

exactly yeah. 

Hannah Munro: 37:24 

And actually, I think it comes back to this is actually quite a nice roundup. It's, it's about not just trying to survive the remote working piece, but actually, how do we make it a great experience? And how do we prove that it's got legs for you know, when, when, when we do have the option to go back to the office, and then I guess giving people a choice as to whether that's something they want to do. 

Shauna Moran: 37:47 

Exactly. Yeah. And like the other thing I've dived into the research as well, you know, a lot of people, most people don't want to go back to what it looked like before the pandemic. They don't want to go back to the daily commutes and the office five days a week. So, based on that research alone, that tells us there's a place for remote work in the future and it's not really going to go anywhere. Sure, it'll look a little bit different. But based on that, what are you doing as an organization to future-proof the way that most people are going to work in some form in the future? 

Hannah Munro: 38:28 

Yeah, and I think I love a stat. You can't beat a stat. I think when I saw one recently that said something along the lines of if 48% Thank you so, much. 

Shauna Moran: 39:00 

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, that leads on to other discussions or thoughts for organizations is what does flexibility look like, right? I read an article, I think I read the same stat. And, you know, it said the rise of the likes of Airbnb’s and travel in the future because people don't want to necessarily work from one location. So, there's plenty of things that companies can be thinking about. But, you know, we can jump on the... you know, the next idea or worry too much about the future. But based on the work that I do, the endless conversations that I have with people in this industry, it's start where you are today, collect that feedback and create a plan to help your team sustain themselves and thrive right now. And everything else will fall into place. It will. And because you're used to adapting, it will, it will, you know, it will, you'll get there. Sorry. 

Hannah Munro: 39:57 

That's all right. It's reminding you, you probably got to go for a, you know, take a break, take 15 minutes, get some fresh air. Yeah, exactly. Reminded 

Shauna Moran: 40:06 

me that the puppy needs to get out. 

Hannah Munro: 40:08 

I have that same problem for those that you're listening you might hear or appear on a few of these podcasts in future so, uh yeah, she only arrived yesterday so, we'll um that that's a fun and games. 

Shauna Moran: 40:20 

oh, congratulations a puppy is one of the best things that you can do to hold yourself accountable to breaks uh when you're working remotely so, yeah. 

Hannah Munro: 40:30 

they don't quite understand the concepts of teams so, you have to stick to your schedule brilliant well thank you so, Thank you so, much, Shauna. It's been fabulous. And I loved your ending comment about rather than work from home, whether it's work from anywhere. And what does that mean for the future finance office? Will we even have an office? I think that's a really interesting piece and where we will be working in the next sort of 12 to 18 months. So, if our listeners want to learn more about what you do and what you and the team at Operate Remote do, what's the best way to get hold of you? 

Shauna Moran: 41:04 

Best way to get hold of me is to head on over to our website, operateremote.com. You can find me on LinkedIn, Instagram at Operate Remote. And yeah, you can email me at info at operateremote.com. 

Hannah Munro: 41:20 

Brilliant. Well, thank you so, much for joining on the show. It's been fabulous. And yeah, it's been great to get so, many hints and tips about working remotely and avoiding burnout. 

Shauna Moran: 41:30 

Thank you so, much for having me.